jlsoaz
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More listening to customers, less listening to lawyers

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:59 pm

I suggest:

1. Cease and desist (listening to the lawyers quite so much):

I guess normally I wouldn't suggest this but after listening to Andy Palmer's inadequate response on the information consent reminder, I cannot help it. It may be in the letter of the law, but it is not in the spirit of the car, nor is it consistent with fighting (truly and not just for show) for a good customer experience, nor is it competitive (given the extent to which competitors have solved this problem, and I doubt they are ignoring their lawyers).

2. Aside from the area of the information consent reminder, Nissan's response to the severe degradation issues doesn't exactly seem to be a case of listening too much to its lawyers as being very stubborn about its engineering. I suggest more humility and acknowledging that there are issues with design here (inadequate TMS) for some climates. How about a model with more kWh (30 or 35 or so) and less arguing with customers?
Last edited by jlsoaz on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
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Stanton
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Re: More customer-orientiation, less listening to lawyers

Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:00 am

I think you've got it backwards: The AZ issue pushed so hard so fast that Nissan was forced into a defensive mode (and probably lots of legal fees). While it's easy to say "make a bigger battery pack", there were thousands of choices that went into making the Leaf a reality, and if they wanted to make a Tesla (for example), then we wouldn't even be talking about this because most of us (myself included) wouldn't have been able to afford one! Sometimes I think we need a little perspective.

BTW, I thought that was a good interview and appreciated the candor given the situation.
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jlsoaz
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Re: More customer-orientiation, less listening to lawyers

Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:17 pm

Stanton wrote:I think you've got it backwards: The AZ issue pushed so hard so fast that Nissan was forced into a defensive mode (and probably lots of legal fees). While it's easy to say "make a bigger battery pack", there were thousands of choices that went into making the Leaf a reality, and if they wanted to make a Tesla (for example), then we wouldn't even be talking about this because most of us (myself included) wouldn't have been able to afford one! Sometimes I think we need a little perspective.

BTW, I thought that was a good interview and appreciated the candor given the situation.
Thanks, I'll stand by my comments:

- I personally think their response about lawyers being the reason for the consent nag is inadequate. Every other company including GM with an aggressive communications program is able to solve this without this inane anti-customer-experience recurring nag. Once a week, or every two or three or four weeks, would be sufficient, together with a specific screen one could go to at any time to permanently alter one's consent.

- My perspective on battery size is informed by the 1997-2003 EV era as well as today. The Nissan Altra EV of the 2000s era appears to have had a not-very-aggressively-cooled Li-ion battery in the 32 kWh range. The Toyota RAV4 EV of that era (circa 2002) appears to have been in the 27 kWh range. The CODA of today has 33+ kWh, or so. The latest Toyota RAV4 EV of 2012 appears to be in the 40 kWh range, albeit at the $50k MSRP level. I don't think it's too outrageous to suggest that Nissan should consider several things (better TMS, perhaps offering a PHEV alongside its BEV offering) and perhaps this should include a higher energy battery option on the Leaf, in the 30-40 kWh range, and see what the market will bear. Basically, I'm suggesting when a company goes to sell an EV in the US markets, the range should be a bit more.... in the 90-150 mile range.

Tesla is able to offer 20 more kWh for about $10k more money. I don't know that Nissan could pull this off with the Leaf as the pricing structure is set up differently, but maybe Nissan could consider a somewhat larger battery as an option, at some point.

As to the interview, I don't dispute that there were many good things about it, and it's something that other companies might not do, or might not have done. This doesn't end the issues though... it is just a matter of understanding that the complaints coming are not all coming about from folks who have nothing better to do... many of them are legit.

At first glance, I thought the 7,500 average distance figure offered by Mr. Palmer just seemed outright not-to-the-point.

Anyway, I'm a new Arizona Leaf lessee and am not disgruntled, but as a longtime discussion participant as to EVs, I've long thought that some of Nissan's choices for the US market were a bit debatable, so am just saying so.
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http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

Caracalover
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Re: More listening to customers, less listening to lawyers

Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:31 pm

Selling gasoline powered cars is still in Nissan's best interest.

So a Leaf with a 200 mile range may be asking too much for the first 5 years, lawyers, lawsuits, hackers, disgruntled owners, or not.

If and when there is competition, things will change. Without that, well we have to take what we are offered, which is not too shabby.
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DaveEV
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Re: More customer-orientiation, less listening to lawyers

Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:50 pm

jlsoaz wrote:I don't think it's too outrageous to suggest that Nissan should consider several things (better TMS, perhaps offering a PHEV alongside its BEV offering) and perhaps this should include a higher energy battery option on the Leaf, in the 30-40 kWh range, and see what the market will bear. Basically, I'm suggesting when a company goes to sell an EV in the US markets, the range should be a bit more.... in the 90-150 mile range.
Exactly. 100 mi real world range is what's needed to sell EVs in volume - in a vehicle like the LEAF that's around 32 kWh nominal capacity.

Capacity loss is also much less of an issue after 8 years when you're down to 70%. Still having 70 mi range vs 50 mi range is a large difference and makes a big difference in usability for many people.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: More listening to customers, less listening to lawyers

Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:52 pm

Rich on Seattle FB group had a comment on the "i agree" issue
A reason you need to press the OK button is to authorize transmission of data for the EV Project. Home charging stations were provided free and install costs subsidized along with paying for DCFC inlet for EVP residential participants in exchange for providing data. But the other reason is Washington and other states' consumer protection laws which require the vehicle owner to OK the transmission of data. For example, in Washington, the vehicle owner owns the data and others cannot access except "With the consent of the owner, given for a specific instance of access, for any purpose" or if there is a subscription service. There is some ambiguity in the law and how it covers data transmitted by a person using the vehicle who is not the owner. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... &full=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
now, why it does not apply to GM? dont know...."home field" bias maybe? :?

ah then again, maybe its Sunday and I have watched too much football :D
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: More customer-orientiation, less listening to lawyers

Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:59 pm

drees wrote:
jlsoaz wrote:I don't think it's too outrageous to suggest that Nissan should consider several things (better TMS, perhaps offering a PHEV alongside its BEV offering) and perhaps this should include a higher energy battery option on the Leaf, in the 30-40 kWh range, and see what the market will bear. Basically, I'm suggesting when a company goes to sell an EV in the US markets, the range should be a bit more.... in the 90-150 mile range.
Exactly. 100 mi real world range is what's needed to sell EVs in volume - in a vehicle like the LEAF that's around 32 kWh nominal capacity.

Capacity loss is also much less of an issue after 8 years when you're down to 70%. Still having 70 mi range vs 50 mi range is a large difference and makes a big difference in usability for many people.
ya, well the average driver goes 38 miles a day which is just about what a Volt does and there is a lot of evidence supporting that figure since average Volt driver visits gas stations every 900 miles (according to GM commercial...)

so in reality, the LEAF does twice that. I think a better sell would be an EV that does the same 80 miles but is $30,000 before incentives.

we cannot get past the cost of the batteries (whatever that is) and I think before we can assume the average consumer wants more miles (who doesnt want more of anything?) we have to go back to the sticker price which is still the greatest deterrent here.

There are some vehicles coming out that will test the "pay more for range" question but unfortunately the best examples are in such limited production (Tesla is just too much money for most of us. if it were $10,000 cheaper...) that their #'s will probably not be able to tell us anything.

if the LEAF S model rumors are true, i think it wont take long to see whether or not it will fly
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
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surfingslovak
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Re: More customer-orientiation, less listening to lawyers

Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:05 pm

jlsoaz wrote:I personally think their response about lawyers being the reason for the consent nag is inadequate. Every other company including GM with an aggressive communications program is able to solve this without this inane anti-customer-experience recurring nag. Once a week, or every two or three or four weeks, would be sufficient, together with a specific screen one could go to at any time to permanently alter one's consent.
I have to agree. I had a Volt on order last year, and joined their owner forum as well. My impression is the GM is doing significantly better on the communications front. A Volt Advisor reached out to me several times to help along with the ordering process and bridge the time until the delivery of the vehicle. I'm not sure if they are still doing that, but this really impressed me.
drees wrote:Exactly. 100 mi real world range is what's needed to sell EVs in volume - in a vehicle like the LEAF that's around 32 kWh nominal capacity.

Capacity loss is also much less of an issue after 8 years when you're down to 70%. Still having 70 mi range vs 50 mi range is a large difference and makes a big difference in usability for many people.
That's in the right ballpark. The ActiveE has 32 kwh of rated capacity with 94 miles EPA rating. In my experience, the car is about 7% less efficient than the Leaf. One of the reasons for getting it was my interest in NMC, which is the chemistry Nissan is allegedly planning to use in the future.Image
Last edited by surfingslovak on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: More listening to customers, less listening to lawyers

Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:34 pm

still have to dispute "more range is better" theory...

http://www.rwjf.org/en/blogs/new-public ... sh_rwjf_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The risk of obesity increases 6% with every additional mile spent in the car, and decreases 5% with every kilometer walked.
;)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
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jlsoaz
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Re: More listening to customers, less listening to lawyers

Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:30 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:still have to dispute "more range is better" theory...

http://www.rwjf.org/en/blogs/new-public ... sh_rwjf_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[...]
Hi Dave, love this link, and the overall topic of identifying health-transportation nexus points and trying to acknowledge if-when there are superior alternatives to EV-ing. However, it's not really to the point. The question isn't whether a higher-range option is better for health, but whether it would help make the vehicle (even at a somewhat higher cost) more desirable to some Americans.

You also commented in a separate post:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: ya, well the average driver goes 38 miles a day which is just about what a Volt does and there is a lot of evidence supporting that figure since average Volt driver visits gas stations every 900 miles (according to GM commercial...)

so in reality, the LEAF does twice that. I think a better sell would be an EV that does the same 80 miles but is $30,000 before incentives.
Here again, I think understanding the average commute, and related EV sales considerations, is a strong point, but (in my view) does not negate what I have suggested. I am not suggesting this based on my personal distance needs or from a little while of following discussions, but from some years (or decades) of following the EV markets and the back-and-forth comments of folks who have debated these matters. I think there is a market for an 80 range vehicle, but there's a bigger market for a 100+ mile range vehicle. Waiting for battery prices to come down is in my view wrong.

Agree with keeping an eye on Tesla to see how battery/range options will work but that it is of limited value since they are in a different segment (and starting off with the higher range numbers as a bare-minimum).
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

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