V2G for power regulation

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jstack6

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
137
Location
Chandler Arizona
I'd like to see a V2G Vehicle to GRID option. ACpropulsion has it and they are even testing it in Delaware with the Univ of Delaware. Nissan and EV makers could warrenty the battery on Kilowatts in and out not miles.

Vehicle to GRID allows you to store and then sell back power to the GRID, you can also use you car as a power system during a power outage.
By just being connected to the GRID aqnd allowing a small power in and out you can ticle your batteries and help regulate the GRID. Imagine Millions of vehicles with this ability.

see the great book V2G-101.
 
As far as I can tell, there's nothing in the Leaf that prohibits V2G today, except the warranty terms.

You can get to the battery mains via the CHAdeMO port. People have hooked large telecom UPS units to the Prius in a similar way.
 
The Charger in the LEAF controls L1, L2, AND QC charging. If the Charger does not like the current flow "into" the battery, it can OPEN relay contacts to sever the connection to th QC or V2G device. The controller firmware might not like out-flowing current.
 
I have a very local interest in V2G. I can charge my car at $0.07/kWh, super off-peak. I can pump unused charge into my domestic meter to reduce my monthly power bill, where it costs more than $0.07/kWh.

Since it's a leased car, I might not care about long-term battery health or capacity.

If it weren't for the warranty terms that say "no power source use", I'd be looking into it. After all, anyone with a solar system already has a DC to AC grid-pumping inverter that can probably handle the high voltage.
 
GroundLoop said:
Since it's a leased car, I might not care about long-term battery health or capacity.
Click to expand...
But ... could the data logging in the LEAF support a claim by Nissan for "damage beyond ordinary wear and tear" when you want to return the car at the end of the lease ?
 
This is all speculation, but it comes from someone who works for Sempra energy (parent corp of SDG&E).

I asked him about V2G and he said there isn't anything on their radar that would suggest that as a possibility for the next 10+ years. What he envisions happening first would be the ability for the electric company to STOP your EV from charging during times of peak demand. ex. they send you a text asking you if they could stop your EV charger for 2 hours. If you already have enough miles for the day but were just 'topping off', it might be an option.

V2Gis a GREAT idea, though, and needs to be explored thoroughly. But look how long it's taking electric companies to implement "smart meters"??? Those have been available for a long time.

Before V2G is an option, the electric companies will have to figure out a way to make extra $$ from it. Otherwise, you and I will never see it. :cry:
 
Again, if you have Solar PV, you already have everything you need for V2G, minus a CHAdeMO cable and some minor electronics.
SDG&E won't even know. How could they? DC into your solar inverter can come from panels or your car.

I'm sure the Leaf has enough logging/tattle capability to void your "Do Not Use As A Power Source" warranty, though.

The remote-control-cutoff is already implemented (demand response) on A/C units. The exact same box would work fine on an EVSE. SDG&E sends out the signal to cut power, and the box clunks off.
 
Jimmydreams said:
V2Gis a GREAT idea, though, and needs to be explored thoroughly. But look how long it's taking electric companies to implement "smart meters"??? Those have been available for a long time.

Before V2G is an option, the electric companies will have to figure out a way to make extra $$ from it. Otherwise, you and I will never see it. :cry:
Click to expand...

"a way to make money", thats very simple and obvious, they don't have to build additional peak power plants, if there where enough V2G vehicles connected to the grid. Do you have any idea of the amount of money that saves them? We need better batteries that can handle more cycles before it's going to happen though. They can already communicate with many of the newer EVSEs with wireless RF technology from their AMI equipped smartmeters.
 
Mitch has nailed this exactly - power companies want to make money selling power, not building new plants. V2G is a way that enables them to generate a more constant rate of power, using the stored energy in the grid to help them meet peak demands.

At this point in time, it doesn't make that much sense as the stored energy is too low. However - if IBM's prediction of Lithium Air batteries by 2015 (so maybe in vehicles by 2020?) comes true - the range of a Leaf will be somewhere between 500 and 1000 miles. With that kind off power sitting in storage, V2G starts to make a lot of sense.
 
Here's a report on a V2G project conducted in Delaware courtesy of CARB and AC Propulsion:
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/docs/V2G-Demo-Brooks-02-R5.pdf
Vehicle-to-Grid Demonstration Project: Grid Regulation Ancillary Service with a Battery Electric Vehicle
Click to expand...
Electric vehicles could potentially provide valued services to the power grid when not being
driven, reducing ownership costs. This project evaluated the feasibility and practicality of
vehicles providing a grid ancillary service called regulation. Regulation is especially well suited to
battery electric vehicles: it involves fast-response changes in power above and below a baseline.
With the baseline set at zero power, the power fluctuations above and below zero average out to
approximately zero net energy over time. Hence, a vehicle’s battery state of charge would vary
in the short term, but would not become discharged over time. A test vehicle was fitted with a
bidirectional grid power interface and wireless internet connectivity, allowing power flow to or
from the vehicle to be dispatched remotely. An ‘aggregator’ function was developed to represent
a commercial middleman between a grid operator and multiple vehicles. Power dispatch
commands were sent wirelessly to the vehicle at 4-second intervals, and the vehicle response was
monitored and recorded. Results showed that wireless data transmission times were within ISO
system requirements, and that the energy throughput through the battery due to regulation is
similar to that of typical daily driving. The value created by the service exceeds the battery wear
out costs under most operating assumptions. The long term effects on battery life were beyond
the scope of the study; however it was noted that battery capacity increased by about 10
percent during the testing.
Click to expand...

Scion could pay for itself:
http://news.discovery.com/tech/scion-electric-car-power-grid.html
 
LakeLeaf said:
Mitch has nailed this exactly - power companies want to make money selling power, not building new plants. V2G is a way that enables them to generate a more constant rate of power, using the stored energy in the grid to help them meet peak demands.

At this point in time, it doesn't make that much sense as the stored energy is too low. However - if IBM's prediction of Lithium Air batteries by 2015 (so maybe in vehicles by 2020?) comes true - the range of a Leaf will be somewhere between 500 and 1000 miles. With that kind off power sitting in storage, V2G starts to make a lot of sense.
Click to expand...
Except that the biggest problem is the majority of vehicle charging will be at night. Electric companies are excited about EVs because they'll gain a new customer at night.

They'll have to provide some very serious incentives to convince someone like me to allow them to pull power out of the car during the day, especially since if I have it plugged in, I want it to be charging. But odds are I won't plug in very often at all during the daytime hours and just at night.
 
Chris, you are forgetting that many vehicles will be plugged in during the day at peoples places of work. The V2G is for very quick high demand loads, it's not going to be a constant draw. This isn't going to happen for a number of years, and only when the number of cycles is vastly improved, so it is not a significant percentage of the packs life.

This is going to happen, it's just a matter of time. No one will be required to participate, but the financial incentives per KW supplied will likely be quite high, so many will participate.
 
mitch672 said:
This is going to happen, it's just a matter of time. No one will be required to participate, but the financial incentives per KW supplied will likely be quite high, so many will participate.
Click to expand...
There is an inherent conflict between battery warranty and V2G. That needs to be solved first.
 
evnow said:
mitch672 said:
This is going to happen, it's just a matter of time. No one will be required to participate, but the financial incentives per KW supplied will likely be quite high, so many will participate.
Click to expand...
There is an inherent conflict between battery warranty and V2G. That needs to be solved first.
Click to expand...

Yes, I said that. re-read post: "This isn't going to happen for a number of years, and only when the number of cycles is vastly improved, so it is not a significant percentage of the packs life"
 
Exactly - we can still charge and help regulate! Take a look at the paper again and notice that cars actively engaged in grid regulation are still charging. The power coming in and out due to regulation is small spikes - not large, sustained, energy moves.

As far as our battery is concerned, regulation is like filling a swimming pool from a fire hydrant while moving water into and out of the pool with 30-gallon buckets.

As for today's warranty VS. V2G - this is apples and oranges at this point as Nissan's warranty TODAY is based on using a battery and controller not designed for V2G use.

The long term effects on battery life were beyond the scope of the study; however it was noted that battery capacity increased by about 10 percent during the testing.
Click to expand...
 
I think we are all on the same page. V2G can be good - but only in some (distant ?) point in the future when
- Batteries have large # of useful cycles
- We can all plug in at work
 
evnow said:
I think we are all on the same page. V2G can be good - but only in some (distant ?) point in the future when
- Batteries have large # of useful cycles
Click to expand...
Today's lithium already has more than sufficient useful cycles. And V2G as performed by ACP is not a 'battery cycle' event. So sorry, I don't think we're on the same page. ;)
evnow said:
- We can all plug in at work
Click to expand...
Absolutely! Work from home. ;)
 
AndyH said:
evnow said:
I think we are all on the same page. V2G can be good - but only in some (distant ?) point in the future when
- Batteries have large # of useful cycles
Click to expand...
Today's lithium already has more than sufficient useful cycles. And V2G as performed by ACP is not a 'battery cycle' event. So sorry, I don't think we're on the same page. ;)
evnow said:
- We can all plug in at work
Click to expand...
Absolutely! Work from home. ;)
Click to expand...

The problem is, even though ACP has the most advanced EV system (V2G, 18KW charging using the motor windings, etc), no one is using it. It would be nice if some mfr licensed it from them, as they have been trying to do for years... Then you might see some movement on the V2G front. $55K for a "conversion" is not going to cut it, and they can't do a meaningful number of conversions per year to matter. This is again a case of the "best" system being too expensive for wide deployment.

In case anyone is wondering who ACP is, here is a link to their Tzero system:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-tzero.html
 
This will be better suited for the used batteries that come out of cars in ten years. I can't imagine even in ten years there will be enough electric vehicles that would participate to make a difference. Now if 30%+ vehicles were electric, the idea might gain some momentum. However as we get more EVs the power demand will already rise during off peak and solar will continue to expand to cover the daytime peak demand. Just saying there is more in play and the formulas will change considerably during the next ten to twenty years. May not even be needed let alone cost effective.
 

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