GRA
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:03 pm

LEAFfan wrote:
GRA wrote:A member of the general motoring public would get damned irritated by having to stop every 50 miles to do a 30 minute L3 charge if they wanted to drive their Leaf to Los Angeles from the Bay Area.
You're exaggerating. You won't have to wait 30 minutes for an 80% QC. That's ONLY if it's empty. I plan on driving at least 80 miles @ 60mph (around 1 1/2 hours) and would need to take a break anyway. In about 15-20 mins., I'll be on my way again. It sounds great to me!
I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Cruising down I-5 at 70 mph (and being overtaken by all the people doing 85) with a brand-new battery, Tony Williams' chart shows a 68 mile range in ideal conditons for the Leaf. 80% of 68 (and that assumes you're willing to run with no reserve at all) is 54.4 miles. Throw in just a few real-world variables and 45-50 miles at freeway speeds is probably a good average, even if you slow down to 65 (and good luck to you), for a max range of 75 miles, or 65 with a 10 mile reserve - I can easily come up with combinations of likely conditions that will drop the guaranteed range down into the low 30s.

So LA is ~400 miles - 60 miles initial (Altamont pass is 1,009 feet, so knock 65 down to 60) = 340 miles, divided by 50 miles = is ~ 7 x 30-minute charges enroute or 3.5 hours on top of the driving time, with no allowance for climbing the Grapevine, HVAC use, winds, lights, battery degradation, temps and so on.

Fortunately it doesn't matter that much, because people like me who have a need to take such trips on a regular basis will keep their ICEs or hybrids, or buy themselves plug-in hybrids. I may like the thought of a BEV, but as a solo car owner who only uses that car for out-of-town trips, many of them from sea level up to the mountains and often in winter, a PHEV is the only reasonable option for me for the moment. Once battery prices come down and/or the technology and infrastructure improve, a BEV may be practical as a sole car for me. And the sooner I can put a "NOPEC" bumper sticker on my car and flip the bird to the OPEC despot of the month, the happier I'll be.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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johnr
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:37 pm

Personally, a 150 mile range would make me happy. The Leaf's current "100 mile" range means 50 miles one way when there's no charging at the destination. A lot of the places I like to go in the mountains nearby are about 60 miles away, putting them just out of reach - and there's no electricity up there. A 150 mile range would open up a lot more destinations to me. For daily commuting, of course, the Leaf's range is plenty for me.
My trip to Mineral King and the value of regen

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2011 upgrade: Fossil < Leaf. 2014 upgrade: Leaf < imiev. 2017 upgrade: imiev < tesla. Done upgrading.

LEAFfan
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:48 pm

GRA wrote:
LEAFfan wrote:
GRA wrote:A member of the general motoring public would get damned irritated by having to stop every 50 miles to do a 30 minute L3 charge if they wanted to drive their Leaf to Los Angeles from the Bay Area.
You're exaggerating. You won't have to wait 30 minutes for an 80% QC. That's ONLY if it's empty. I plan on driving at least 80 miles @ 60mph (around 1 1/2 hours) and would need to take a break anyway. In about 15-20 mins., I'll be on my way again. It sounds great to me!
I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Cruising down I-5 at 70 mph (and being overtaken by all the people doing 85) with a brand-new battery, Tony Williams' chart shows a 68 mile range in ideal conditons for the Leaf.
Oh, you're probably right with all those other conditions and only an 80% charge from the QC. His chart is for 100% charging which you would only have to start.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
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GRA
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:01 pm

johnr wrote:Personally, a 150 mile range would make me happy. The Leaf's current "100 mile" range means 50 miles one way when there's no charging at the destination. A lot of the places I like to go in the mountains nearby are about 60 miles away, putting them just out of reach - and there's no electricity up there. A 150 mile range would open up a lot more destinations to me. For daily commuting, of course, the Leaf's range is plenty for me.
It would certainly be a lot more useful to me too - my minimum useful range is 110 miles (100 plus 10 mile reserve) at freeway speeds, because I go to Monterey for the weekend regularly and that's just under 100 miles from my place. And I'd like to be able to drive over to Point Reyes and back for a day's hiking or biking; depending on where I go that's 57-77 miles one way, about half on the freeway. And 150 miles would mean I could get to Yosemite or Tahoe on two L3 (or even L2) charges enroute (lots of climbing), although to make L2 charges reasonably useful for enroute charging Nissan needs to upgrade their charger to 6.6 kW or more. Otherwise, the Focus EV will have a significant practical range advantage until L3 chargers become widely available.

Of course, until they get chargers in convenient locations it's somewhat of a moot point, but we should all be lobbying for those. For starters I'm encouraging CSAA to install L2s (and free L1s for employees) at their offices along major routes to and at weekend destinations ca. 230 miles or less distance from major urban areas - Hwys 80, 50, 88, 4, 12, 152, 99, 101, 120, 140, 41, etc. For the S.F. Bay Area, we want to be able to get to say Fort Bragg, Napa Valley, Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur, Sacramento, Tahoe and Yosemite, and have somewhere to charge when we get there. And we need to lobby the National Park Service and the California State Park System to install L2 chargers in the parks, although given the current financial and political climate that's problematic.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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planet4ever
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:53 pm

LEAFfan wrote:
GRA wrote:
LEAFfan wrote:You're exaggerating. You won't have to wait 30 minutes for an 80% QC. That's ONLY if it's empty. I plan on driving at least 80 miles @ 60mph (around 1 1/2 hours) and would need to take a break anyway. In about 15-20 mins., I'll be on my way again. It sounds great to me!
I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Cruising down I-5 at 70 mph (and being overtaken by all the people doing 85) with a brand-new battery, Tony Williams' chart shows a 68 mile range in ideal conditons for the Leaf.
Oh, you're probably right with all those other conditions and only an 80% charge from the QC. His chart is for 100% charging which you would only have to start.
You're both exaggerating. But based on the limited reports we have seen, you are not going to average much more than 30 kW from the QC. That means in your 15-20 minutes, LEAFfan, you will only get 8-10 kWh. In order to drive 80 miles on 8-10 kWh you will have to get 8 to 10 m/kWh. I don't think even you can do that at 60 mph.

By the way, the 30 minute QC that Nissan claims is not from empty to 80%; it's from the first low battery warning (17% according to Tony's chart) to 80%. That's 62% of (probably) 21 kWh in half an hour or about 13 kWh. That works out to an average rate of only 26 kW, even less than I assumed just above.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

GRA
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:31 pm

planet4ever wrote: You're both exaggerating. But based on the limited reports we have seen, you are not going to average much more than 30 kW from the QC. That means in your 15-20 minutes, LEAFfan, you will only get 8-10 kWh. In order to drive 80 miles on 8-10 kWh you will have to get 8 to 10 m/kWh. I don't think even you can do that at 60 mph.

By the way, the 30 minute QC that Nissan claims is not from empty to 80%; it's from the first low battery warning (17% according to Tony's chart) to 80%. That's 62% of (probably) 21 kWh in half an hour or about 13 kWh. That works out to an average rate of only 26 kW, even less than I assumed just above.

Ray
I'm curious - how am I exaggerating? That's the way the numbers run, based on Tony's chart. Or my understanding of it, at least.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Range- 100 mile versus 200 mile

Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:11 pm

By the way, the 30 minute QC that Nissan claims is not from empty to 80%; it's from the first low battery warning (17% according to Tony's chart) to 80%. That's 62% of (probably) 21 kWh in half an hour or about 13 kWh. That works out to an average rate of only 26 kW, even less than I assumed just above.
There's going to be losses, so the rate will be higher than 26kW. But, I think the rest is correct.

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