The Next Leaf Selling Points

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

electricfuture

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
250
Location
Davenport , FL
The vehicle is in general just fine the way it is hitting the sweet spot of a practical every day vehicle with enough interior room, speed and amenities to satisfy the general public that is facing the reality of increasing gas prices. I believe that only 3 things are needed to significantly increase sales to the general public:

1. 150 mile range battery. This would mean a true 100-110 mile range no matter what you driving style or the amount of high speed express way driving you need to do. Very few travel more than 100 miles per day and even if you do seeing an additional 40-50 range left will substantially reduce range anxiety - even if the additional range is not ever used.

2. A durable leather looking interior. This is necessary if this is to be considered a family car transporting children and their sports equipment. You must have an easy to clean interior for spills.

3. Priced under $30,000. Over this price will turn off the average buyer. It will be years before they understand the cost advantages of no maintenance.

Also, the Fast Charger needs to be standard equipment as this is definitely needed to reduce range anxiety. Knowing that you can full charge in 30 minutes away from home will become more and more important as time goes by.
 
electricfuture said:
Also, the Fast Charger needs to be standard equipment as this is definitely needed to reduce range anxiety. Knowing that you can full charge in 30 minutes away from home will become more and more important as time goes by.
Done! The DC Quick Charge port is standard on the 2012 SL model... :D
 
You DO realize the numbers 1 and 3 are diametrically opposed, don't you? I'll be happy if they can get the price of the current capabilities down to under $30,000...but it won't be a LEAF. Nissan would never let a model like the LEAF go through a huge price decrease. Expect instead the LEAF to increase in capabilities and luxury and keep it's price range, while a new lower end model is created to fill that under $30,000 niche.
 
I believe there is along next LEAF features wish list thread-

My thoughts, a higher capacity pack, slightly more powerful motor and replace the entire body, interior and crummy electronic systems in the car. Headlights are worth keeping, all else must go down starting with the outdated thing they call a NAV and stereo in the center of the dash. Ditch all the many Versa parts and then it can be called ground-up.
 
electricfuture said:
The vehicle is in general just fine the way it is hitting the sweet spot of a practical every day vehicle with enough interior room, speed and amenities to satisfy the general public that is facing the reality of increasing gas prices. I believe that only 3 things are needed to significantly increase sales to the general public:

1. 150 mile range battery. This would mean a true 100-110 mile range no matter what you driving style or the amount of high speed express way driving you need to do. Very few travel more than 100 miles per day and even if you do seeing an additional 40-50 range left will substantially reduce range anxiety - even if the additional range is not ever used.

2. A durable leather looking interior. This is necessary if this is to be considered a family car transporting children and their sports equipment. You must have an easy to clean interior for spills.

3. Priced under $30,000. Over this price will turn off the average buyer. It will be years before they understand the cost advantages of no maintenance.

Also, the Fast Charger needs to be standard equipment as this is definitely needed to reduce range anxiety. Knowing that you can full charge in 30 minutes away from home will become more and more important as time goes by.

Concur with all except No.2 (I don't have kids, and prefer cloth seats as I normally drive in shorts, often with no shirt on -I've spent enough time sliding around on sweaty leather or vinyl seats in hot weather, or shivering in cold). However, even 150 mile LA4 range won't be enough to guarantee 110 miles in any conditions. With an old battery in cold weather and using the heater/defroster, lights, windshield wipers etc. on the freeway with some elevation gain (which are the conditions my personal range requirement is based on, and why the current Leaf won't do for me), you might need 180 or even 230 'LA4' miles to guarantee 110 .

Off topic, my local dealer had a red 2011 SL CW in the lot yesterday. Took me a while to figure out the 'CW', but comparison of window stickers indicate it presumably means a 'Cold Weather' package, with battery, seat and steering wheel heaters plus rear seat HVAC ducts that will be standard for 2012. The QC port was still a $700 option for the 2011, but the MSRP without that was $34,650, or a $930 premium over the stock SL. Get 'em before they bump the price for 2012.
 
electricfuture said:
The vehicle is in general just fine the way it is hitting the sweet spot of a practical every day vehicle with enough interior room, speed and amenities to satisfy the general public that is facing the reality of increasing gas prices. I believe that only 3 things are needed to significantly increase sales to the general public:

1. 150 mile range battery. This would mean a true 100-110 mile range no matter what you driving style or the amount of high speed express way driving you need to do. Very few travel more than 100 miles per day and even if you do seeing an additional 40-50 range left will substantially reduce range anxiety - even if the additional range is not ever used.

2. A durable leather looking interior. This is necessary if this is to be considered a family car transporting children and their sports equipment. You must have an easy to clean interior for spills.

3. Priced under $30,000. Over this price will turn off the average buyer. It will be years before they understand the cost advantages of no maintenance.

Also, the Fast Charger needs to be standard equipment as this is definitely needed to reduce range anxiety. Knowing that you can full charge in 30 minutes away from home will become more and more important as time goes by.

Nice list and definitely the major points. The durable leather is a definite plus. On the Audi model product lines, they called it "leatherette" and the look and feel was still very convincing. Definitely more durable than the cloth trim. And the dogs riding in the Leaf will love it too...

I don't think it will be priced under $30k but $40k-ish might be realistic.
 
Once all the rebates are gone - and they definitely will be eventually - a $40kish upscale Leaf is going to be a hard sell to the masses I believe... Even if number 1 and 2 had been available now, with no rebates and at a $40kish price point, I would have had to think very long and hard about it and likely would have declined.

 
People have already adapted to $4 a gallon gas and given time, would to $5 as well... They bitch and scream and change their ways for a bit but eventually pretty much go back to what they were doing before.
I think it would take $7 a gallon or more to make any real long lasting changes in peoples ways in this country.

thankyouOB said:
raise the price of gasoline to $5 a gallon. :cool:
 
Actually, only a longer battery range is the real remaining issue. All the other ones are already non-issues.

You can get third-party leather seats already. Many did it in Orange County. I'm sure there are similar shops all over the country that can provide the same service.

The car with the $7500 federal tax credit is already under $30K. It'll be a long time before the 200,000 car limit would be reached. By then, the economy of scale should push the pricing down to under $30K even without a tax credit.

And of course, the 2012 already has the QC port as standard.

As for the longer battery range, it shouldn't be that far away. Nissan already said their 2015 model will have a battery with twice the energy density as compared to today's model. The availability of more public charging stations in the next year or so will start making this long range less and less of an issue.

Right now, Nissan doesn't have any trouble selling every Leaf they make. So I'm not worried about mass market acceptance. Apparently the early adopter market is much larger than the Leaf supply so far.
 
15000 miles a year / 25 mpg X $5 a gallon = 3k as opposed to $2400 now.
$6 makes it $3600
and $7 makes it $4200 for gasoline.

those numbers affect who has interest in no-gas vehicles.

as the LATimes points out today:
High gas prices and a sluggish economy are boosting U.S. sales of motor scooters.

In the first half of this year, the major brands -– including Vespa, Piaggio, Honda and Yamaha -– sold 18,198 scooters, up 28.9% from the same period last year. The increase was greater than any other catagory of motorcycle, according to the Motorcycle Industry Council.
 
thankyouOB said:
15000 miles a year / 25 mpg X $5 a gallon = 3k as opposed to $2400 now.
$6 makes it $3600
and $7 makes it $4200 for gasoline.

those numbers affect who has interest in no-gas vehicles.
<snip>

Sure. But when they compare a Leaf to a Versa, the latter costs 1/3rd to 1/2 as much up front (not counting the subsidies), so even with the lower cost of operation of the Leaf, when if ever do you see a positive balance? And the Versa can go anywhere, while the Leaf can't. So if you can afford to pay $35k up front for a second car that has a guaranteed range of maybe 50 miles, fine, but for those who need one car to do everything, a BEV is a pretty hard sell at the moment. And PHEVs will have to get cheaper quickly too; a $2,500 premium over a conventional hybrid _may_ be acceptable, but $5,000 - $15,000 isn't. Once battery prices come down and on-board range improves, it will be another matter.
 
I can't be the only one who thinks Nissan really got it "right" with this (gen 1) EV:
1) 100 miles range is fine for an 'around town' car
2) I wouldn't have bought leather seats even if available; you have to remember leather is brutal in warm/hot weather climates (which are ideal for EVs)
3) As has been pointed out, the car is already <$30k with the rebate, and I believe battery prices will drop by the time the rebates expire (which could easily be a couple of years yet) due to:
-->technology advancements
-->unit volume discounts
 
half as much?
one third as much?
I bought my Leaf with rebates for 20k. so now it is 22.5k
Comparing it to a Versa? which costs, you claim, 10k to 14k compared to the Leaf but without the nav nad phone and power all, which is standard equipment on the Leaf?
So, I am there in a few years.
if you are asking what the pay-back period is, you are asking the wrong question.

You sound like an EV opponent.
Are you that?

GRA said:
thankyouOB said:
15000 miles a year / 25 mpg X $5 a gallon = 3k as opposed to $2400 now.
$6 makes it $3600
and $7 makes it $4200 for gasoline.

those numbers affect who has interest in no-gas vehicles.
<snip>

Sure. But when they compare a Leaf to a Versa, the latter costs 1/3rd to 1/2 as much up front (not counting the subsidies), so even with the lower cost of operation of the Leaf, when if ever do you see a positive balance? And the Versa can go anywhere, while the Leaf can't. So if you can afford to pay $35k up front for a second car that has a guaranteed range of maybe 50 miles, fine, but for those who need one car to do everything, a BEV is a pretty hard sell at the moment. And PHEVs will have to get cheaper quickly too; a $2,500 premium over a conventional hybrid _may_ be acceptable, but $5,000 - $15,000 isn't. Once battery prices come down and on-board range improves, it will be another matter.
 
thankyouOB said:
half as much?
one third as much?
I bought my Leaf with rebates for 20k. so now it is 22.5k
As I clearly stated, without the subsidies. We all hope that mass production and the learning curve will drop the price of batteries significantly by the time the subsidies expire, but considering the current political foofaraw around Solyndra and the parlous state of federal and state economies, there's no guarantee that the subsidies will be available as long as they are supposed to be.


Comparing it to a Versa? which costs, you claim, 10k to 14k compared to the Leaf but without the nav nad phone and power all, which is standard equipment on the Leaf?
None of which is essential, although in the case of the Leaf, the nav./data system does help to introduce people to the car's capabilities, leaving fewer of them stranded. OTOH, Carwings seems to be getting a lot of flak for not updating charging stations often enough, and the Smartphone apps for Chargepoint, Recargo etc. seem to be more useful.

If stripping out the nav. system would drop the price (and thus make the car more accessible to the mainstream consumer), I'm all for it. That seems to be what GM has done with the Volt for 2012, stripping off some options to get the MSRP down below $40k. The car still costs at least $10k and probably $15 or even $20k more than a comparable Cruze Eco, with which it shares the platform. I just found a Cruze Eco listed for $18,425. Early adopters will buy the Volt, the mainstream will buy the Cruze until the Volt's price drops. As it is, the cheapest Versa lists for $10,990 with a stick (which I prefer, although I realize I'm in a small minority), $12,760 with a CVT. Hatchback versions start at $14k plus.


So, I am there in a few years.
if you are asking what the pay-back period is, you are asking the wrong question.
Which illustrates the difference between the early adopter and mainstream markets - the latter is almost completely non-ideological as far is technology is concerned - up front cost, early ROI and support infrastructure is far more important to the latter (see Geoffrey Moore's "Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling High Tech Products to Mainstream Customers"). After all, the current Leaf buyer demographic is 45-55, owns a house and has a median family income of $140k, so there's a lot more disposable income available to buy cars suited for specific purposes.


You sound like an EV opponent.
Are you that?
I sound like an EV opponent?! How on earth do you parse that out? Being pro-any technology doesn't preclude understanding the current limitations of that technology. For a fairly complete statement of where my thinking is currently at, read the first post from me on this page:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5001&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;








GRA said:
thankyouOB said:
15000 miles a year / 25 mpg X $5 a gallon = 3k as opposed to $2400 now.
$6 makes it $3600
and $7 makes it $4200 for gasoline.

those numbers affect who has interest in no-gas vehicles.
<snip>

Sure. But when they compare a Leaf to a Versa, the latter costs 1/3rd to 1/2 as much up front (not counting the subsidies), so even with the lower cost of operation of the Leaf, when if ever do you see a positive balance? And the Versa can go anywhere, while the Leaf can't. So if you can afford to pay $35k up front for a second car that has a guaranteed range of maybe 50 miles, fine, but for those who need one car to do everything, a BEV is a pretty hard sell at the moment. And PHEVs will have to get cheaper quickly too; a $2,500 premium over a conventional hybrid _may_ be acceptable, but $5,000 - $15,000 isn't. Once battery prices come down and on-board range improves, it will be another matter.
[/quote]
 
GRA said:
I sound like an EV opponent?! How on earth do you parse that out?
If you understand the technology and the business issues you'll need to get used to this. Some people think that if you don't agree with everything they want to believe is true then you're the enemy. In these instances facts just make it worse.

I don't believe you're the enemy but I don't believe there is much chance the tax credits will go away. Too much reliance. However, the credits might be changed. That might not be a bad thing if they expand the number available to any manufacturer but put a limit on the date.
 
SanDust said:
<snip>

I don't believe you're the enemy but I don't believe there is much chance the tax credits will go away. Too much reliance. However, the credits might be changed. That might not be a bad thing if they expand the number available to any manufacturer but put a limit on the date.
Let's hope you're right. Here's an example of what they're up against:

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/electric-vehicle-subsidies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We'll have to see if they survive whatever happens with the joint budget negotiating committee next month, and then the results of national elections next year.
 
Back
Top