GRA
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 3:57 pm

As someone who has absolutely no skin in the game, I think the single plug SAE makes more sense from a real estate perspective, as well as being forward compatible with the J1772 L2. I have no idea which communications protocol might be better or why, nor what other electronic/mechanical issues might advantage one or the other.

I do think the number of deployed CHaDeMos is so small currently that it would be fairly easy to switch. After all, there's something like 140,000 gas stations in this country alone, each with an average of perhaps 6 pumps. So compared to swapping out all those, ChaDeMo EVSEs numbering in three or four digits, or even cars numbering in the few tens of thousands (out of 245 million plus in the U.S. alone) seem pretty small potatoes.

I'm sure there will be a period just like Beta/VHS until one wins out. As long as there's a reasonable number of cars for each type, I don't see a major issue. And as pointed out upthread, until affordable battery ranges increase considerably no one is likely to be using these plugs a lot. Alternatively, perhaps we should hold out hope for a battery chemistry that can take a full charge in five minutes (and not be destroyed in short order) rather than one with higher energy density, in which case current ranges become more useful if we have an 'L4' fast charge.
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leafedbehind
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 4:07 pm

> "until affordable battery ranges increase considerably no one is likely to be using these plugs a lot. "

On the contrary. It is precisely because we have limited range in the LEAF that we need the fast chargers, NOW! We have used two of the three in the SF Bay Area just in the past couple weeks. And we will need to use one of them tomorrow.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 4:48 pm

GRA wrote:hope for a battery chemistry that can take a full charge in five minutes (and not be destroyed in short order) rather than one with higher energy density, in which case current ranges become more useful if we have an 'L4' fast charge.
SAE has already proposed that (much higher power than Frankenplug or ChadeMo), and that may be the next generation. But, like most things electronic and forward thinking, the Japanese have already DEMONSTRATED it.

TimLee
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 8:06 pm

leafedbehind wrote:> And we will need to use one of them tomorrow.
Good luck.
Based on experience with both Blink and Eaton in East Tennessee, DCFC reliability is pathetic and can not be counted on.
Be prepared to wait four hours while using L2.

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kubel
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 8:35 pm

Is there any real reason for opposition to SAE's combined J1772 proposal as the standard here in the US?

If Nissan wants to include CHAdeMO in future LEAFs even after the combined-J1772 standard is accepted, that's their prerogative. Just like it's Sony's prerogative to insist that all of their devices use the defeated Memory Stick despite having lost that format war long ago to SD.

One plug for everything! I support Frankenplug. CHAdeMO should die as soon as the combined-J1772 standard is finalized. We don't need a hodgepodge of different charging station formats out there. Sorry to the early adopters, but that's the risk you take. Don't buy into something that hasn't been standardized yet, and if you do, don't make a huge fuss about it when it gets betamaxed.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 8:49 pm

kubel wrote:Is there any real reason for opposition to SAE's combined J1772 proposal as the standard here in the US?
Have you read anything about this? Seriously? Sure, if we don't care about the current 30,000 cars already made with ChadeMo, and 100,000 or more that will be built with it before the Frankenplug shows up anywhere.

The Frankenplug is PERFECT for your area (and kind of reminds me of the last 30 years of decision making from your area). It's a clean slate over there (no ChadeMo) and your neighbors can easily be convinced how this is the best since, well, its from Government Motors.

How come your neighbors from Ford and Chrysler haven't announced any actual participation with the Frankenplug?

DANandNAN
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 9:57 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
kubel wrote:Is there any real reason for opposition to SAE's combined J1772 proposal as the standard here in the US?
Have you read anything about this? Seriously? Sure, if we don't care about the current 30,000 cars already made with ChadeMo, and 100,000 or more that will be built with it before the Frankenplug shows up anywhere.
The 30,000? They're OOL. As he said, it stinks for the early adopters but that's what happens.

Now, the 100,000 more? First, that seems awfully optimistic. The available EV choices are starting to accumulate, and eventually choices will pile up. With the big manufacturers using the SAE Combo standard cars that are using the CHAdeMO will stop selling - folks don't want to buy a car that can't plug in to the standard. And, Nissan knows that and probably already has it's CHAdeMO exit plan drawn up.

It's really over. California isn't going to continue installing CHAdeMO when the U.S. & 5 majors from Europe (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche & Volkswagen) are going SAE Combo. Toyota as a last hope? They're not swimming upstream with Nissan because they're smarter than that. Nissan too - I'm guessing it'll be a year or less before they make their announcement.

Really, I hope Nissan does it sooner - it's going to create a huge problem for future customers. Maybe they should add the SAE Combo to the 2013 Leaf - they could make it a gesture of goodwill.
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GaslessInSeattle
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 10:19 pm

I think you are dead wrong, the west coast is already going CHAdeMO full steam and is investing millions in the West Coast Green Highway http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/. Sure the charging stations can be swapped out later but the key is that it's happening now and the SAE is too late for us not to move forward. If all the EV manufacturers were being smart they would make the port plug style easy to swap out, go with CHAdeMO for now and leave it up to the customer to have it swapped out later if the need arises, it's of little consequence that it takes up more room. This way there would be a clear path to getting quick charging out there at this very critical time for the EV market. Producing a car with no Quick Charging port capacity will leave buyers of that car left out in the cold in the very near future, no matter what standard wins out, and slow the adoption of quick charging overall. The Northwest will have the first QC network and I think it's going to be come very evident just how useful, actually crucial quick charging is to the mass adoption of EV's very soon. I drove 160 miles in the Leaf yesterday within just a few hours, all because of 1 quick charger within driving distance of my house, it was very nice and the parking space was free for another car in a matter of minutes compared to the hours it would have taken on an L2! I'd trade virtually all the public level 2 chargers in the area for a handful of well spaced QC's.
GRA wrote:As someone who has absolutely no skin in the game, I think the single plug SAE makes more sense from a real estate perspective, as well as being forward compatible with the J1772 L2. I have no idea which communications protocol might be better or why, nor what other electronic/mechanical issues might advantage one or the other.

I do think the number of deployed CHaDeMos is so small currently that it would be fairly easy to switch. After all, there's something like 140,000 gas stations in this country alone, each with an average of perhaps 6 pumps. So compared to swapping out all those, ChaDeMo EVSEs numbering in three or four digits, or even cars numbering in the few tens of thousands (out of 245 million plus in the U.S. alone) seem pretty small potatoes.

I'm sure there will be a period just like Beta/VHS until one wins out. As long as there's a reasonable number of cars for each type, I don't see a major issue. And as pointed out upthread, until affordable battery ranges increase considerably no one is likely to be using these plugs a lot. Alternatively, perhaps we should hold out hope for a battery chemistry that can take a full charge in five minutes (and not be destroyed in short order) rather than one with higher energy density, in which case current ranges become more useful if we have an 'L4' fast charge.
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GaslessInSeattle
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 10:28 pm

gesture of goodwill? It's the SAE that dragged it's heals for years on this. there's no mistaking it, it's the SAE that has waited so long to create a "standard" that Nissan had to move forward with their own. As mentioned, we are weeks away from people getting their hands on the first QC network in the US. CHAdeMO is here now for us all to begin demonstrating the true suitability of EV's for the masses, even if a new standard gets adopted, Nissan has succeeded in outmaneuvering the SAE's heel dragging and pressured them to move forward faster and we will all benefit from that. Carlos Ghosn is a brilliant man!

DANandNAN wrote:...
Really, I hope Nissan does it sooner - it's going to create a huge problem for future customers. Maybe they should add the SAE Combo to the 2013 Leaf - they could make it a gesture of goodwill.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Sun May 20, 2012 10:44 pm

GaslessInSeattle wrote: Nissan has succeeded in outmaneuvering the SAE's heel dragging and pressured them to move forward faster and we will all benefit from that.
Just for the record, you cannot get the SAE standard yet, because the design is still not final. They are still dragging something. All those EV's that Dan thinks will outnumber us, I predict that few will even have a DC charge port of any kind, just like the current Ford Focus and Toyota Rav4.

So far, this is just DC charging by proxy (and marketing). There's nothing behind the curtain (yet).

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