AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:08 am

TomT wrote:Sorry, but that is simply not true. Turbo and Super Chargers can accomplish many things but changing the mechanical compression ratio - which is just an important as the dynamic compression ratio - is not one of them... Engines optimized for high ratios of Ethanol (E85) also use different cam timing and duration profiles, and different lift. Then there are the different injector patterns and ignition requirements... An engine designed to run on both is, by nature, like a camel designed by committee; a compromise.

Unless I had no other options, I would never fuel anything I owned with E15... Thankfully, it appears as if it will never gain traction in the marketplace (and even the EPA is back-pedaling on it) so that likely will not be a consideration...
AndyH wrote:Yet the engines do exist - and modern computer controlled turbo- and superchargers and other tricks to change compression on the fly make it much easier today than yesterday. It's not rocket science - it's been done for years.
I would agree with your 'designed by committee' suggestion if it applied to engines actually tailored to run mixed fuels (rather than kludged to game a renewable fuel standard). But that's not what I'm talking about.

We've had the ability to vary valve timing, duration, and lift, as well as injection profiles and compression ratio since at least 2009 - here's one example:
http://www.gizmag.com/ebdi-ethanol-engi ... ncy/10929/

There are plenty more - gas and diesel:
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOL ... W/vcr.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0412003020

Your suggestion that the "EPA is back pedaling" on ethanol is also incorrect. Yes, they reduced the renewable fuel production level for the coming year - but that is not the same as reversing a decision. The renewable fuel standard is a production requirement. Other laws define the legal volume of ethanol in gasoline (E10, E15, E85, etc.). Our gasoline demand has dropped - so the production target must drop as well.

As for E15? The EPA isn't changing course - but they are getting beat about the heads and shoulders by the oil industry and their sycophants (like the AAA).
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TomT
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:47 am

"Ethanol requirements for U.S. gasoline appear to be losing friends and influencing the wrong people, with calls growing to reform or scrap the government mandates altogether."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101297359" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:47 pm

TomT wrote:"Ethanol requirements for U.S. gasoline appear to be losing friends and influencing the wrong people, with calls growing to reform or scrap the government mandates altogether."
Nothing new here, Tom - this has been going on since Rockefeller was the head of Standard oil.

The oil industry doesn't want ANY ethanol in 'their' system and they've been pressuring politicians and the EPA since before there was an EPA to get their way.

The simple fact remains that the EPA had to reduce the number of gallons of ethanol produced under the production mandates simply because we're burning less gasoline.

Because gasoline use is declining, the oil industry (really the fuel industry - lubricants are a secondary product) wants to further reduce ethanol use to keep their profits up.
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dhanson865
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:29 pm

I'd be happy to see the ethanol mix back down to 5% max (same as Canada) and see Mexico move to 5% also (they are currently at 6%)

Even nicer if they go to E4 max (like Ireland) or E3 max (to be the lowest federal limit on ethanol)

Ironically http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; calls for no less than 8% ethanol and no more than 10% ethanol.

I'd consider E8 still too much but better than E10.

I'm still putting E0 (100% gasoline) in my Prius and lawnmower.
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TomT
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:05 pm

It's MUCH more than just the oil industry...
AndyH wrote:The oil industry doesn't want ANY ethanol in 'their' system and they've been pressuring politicians and the EPA since before there was an EPA to get their way.
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TomT
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:06 pm

+1
dhanson865 wrote:I'd be happy to see the ethanol mix back down to 5% max (same as Canada) and see Mexico move to 5% also (they are currently at 6%)

Even nicer if they go to E4 max (like Ireland) or E3 max (to be the lowest federal limit on ethanol)

I'd consider E8 still too much but better than E10.
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AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:41 am

TomT wrote:It's MUCH more than just the oil industry...
AndyH wrote:The oil industry doesn't want ANY ethanol in 'their' system and they've been pressuring politicians and the EPA since before there was an EPA to get their way.
Who else is it then?

Sorry Tom, neither history nor money spent lobbying Congress supports your position.
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TomT
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:11 am

Read the article...
AndyH wrote:Who else is it then?
Sorry Tom, neither history nor money spent lobbying Congress supports your position.
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AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?opr

Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:51 am

TomT wrote:Read the article...
AndyH wrote:Who else is it then?
Sorry Tom, neither history nor money spent lobbying Congress supports your position.
:lol: I did and as I said, there's no smoking gun there not held by the API and their buddies.

The root of the article remains that 1. gasoline use in this country continues to decline, that 2. the mandate the article attempts to address is based on production volume of ethanol, and that 3. the production target for ethanol must decline so that too much isn't produced. The majority of the article is a soap opera.

Of COURSE ethanol suppliers want to make more! Of COURSE farmers want corn prices to rise! Of COURSE the oil industry wants ethanol levels to drop to ZERO! There's nothing new AT ALL there!
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RegGuheert
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:22 am

I'm encouraged to see that the UN is capable of changing their position on a topic when they realize they had the science wrong:

Biofuels do more harm than good, UN warns
The Telegraph wrote:The United Nations will officially warn that growing crops to make “green” biofuel harms the environment and drives up food prices, The Telegraph can disclose.

A leaked draft of a UN report condemns the widespread use of biofuels made from crops as a replacement for petrol and diesel. It says that biofuels, rather than combating the effects of global warming, could make them worse.

The draft report represents a dramatic about-turn for the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
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