AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:44 pm

Guy,

Just another scattered example of 'current art' with regards to heavy vehicles. I was aware that ethanol was used in heavy diesel buses, I think in Brazil, as part of a mix with diesel and possibly biodiesel. Here's a more current example - ED95.

http://www.sekab.com/biofuel/ed95
ED95 is an ethanol based fuel for adapted diesel engines. It consists of 95 percent pure ethanol with the addition of ignition improver, lubricant and corrosion protection. In a diesel engine adapted for ED95 ethanol’s potential can be up to 40 percent better utilised than in a petrol engine.


One of the engine modifications is the installation of an ignition system (spark plugs, computer, etc.). This is also a requirement when burning LNG.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/32863.pdf

Both fuels have a track record, require engine adaptations, and are cleaner than diesel. Only one emits 'current' carbon.
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siai
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:40 pm

If you add a ignition system, you are no longer running on the "diesel" cycle. The fuel economy drop from diesel fuel to Ethanol (energy per gallon) and the loss of the efficiency of the compression-ignition diesel cycle would be horrendous.

AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:15 pm

siai wrote:If you add a ignition system, you are no longer running on the "diesel" cycle.
Correct.
siai wrote:The fuel economy drop from diesel fuel to Ethanol (energy per gallon) and the loss of the efficiency of the compression-ignition diesel cycle would be horrendous.
Happily, this is not correct.

The efficiency improvement doesn't come from the diesel cycle - it comes from running the fuel in a high-compression engine capable of using the energy available in a ~105 octane fuel. That's the difference. Ethanol, when burned in an engine with the proper compression ratio, is about 44% efficient. Diesel is about 40% and gasoline engines are about 20-30%.

But again - the number one problem we have is dumping fossil carbon into the atmosphere. We MUST stop that.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 14#p208514
Image
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/s ... 743-v2.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/2 ... -final.pdf
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AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:42 am

Guy, I stumbled on this while searching for something completely different - but I'll take it. :)

http://www.nrel.gov/biomass/pdfs/47764.pdf

The report discusses the use of acid and enzymes to convert cellulose from corn stover into fuel ethanol. The minimum selling price for fuel is $2.15/gallon in 2007$.

Andy
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GRA
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:42 pm

AndyH wrote:Guy, I stumbled on this while searching for something completely different - but I'll take it. :)

http://www.nrel.gov/biomass/pdfs/47764.pdf

The report discusses the use of acid and enzymes to convert cellulose from corn stover into fuel ethanol. The minimum selling price for fuel is $2.15/gallon in 2007$.

Andy
Thanks, Andy. OTOH,

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/02 ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As expected, things take a lot longer to be commercialized than the optimistic forecasts. Production in 2012 of 20,000 gallons versus a target of 500 million gallons back in 2007, so they'd only achieved an actual production that's 4 thousandths of a % of the target. And according to :

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/08 ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this year's requirement is only 6 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol, which is reduced from the 14 million originally proposed early this year, presumably because there wasn't anywhere near enough capacity to meet it.

For a cheerier view of what might ultimately be accomplished, there's:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/06 ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:01 am

GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote:Guy, I stumbled on this while searching for something completely different - but I'll take it. :)

http://www.nrel.gov/biomass/pdfs/47764.pdf

The report discusses the use of acid and enzymes to convert cellulose from corn stover into fuel ethanol. The minimum selling price for fuel is $2.15/gallon in 2007$.

Andy
Thanks, Andy. OTOH,

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/02 ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As expected, things take a lot longer to be commercialized than the optimistic forecasts. Production in 2012 of 20,000 gallons versus a target of 500 million gallons back in 2007, so they'd only achieved an actual production that's 4 thousandths of a % of the target. And according to :

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/08 ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this year's requirement is only 6 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol, which is reduced from the 14 million originally proposed early this year, presumably because there wasn't anywhere near enough capacity to meet it.

For a cheerier view of what might ultimately be accomplished, there's:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/06 ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You really like GCC, don't you? :lol:

The EIA says US production isn't meeting targets? No surprise there - we've already seen examples of this in this thread - along with the reason for it from actual producers. The number one reason ethanol is not the dominant fuel in this country is the same today as it's been since about 1920 - because the gasoline industry is putting more money into fighting ethanol than the ethanol industry makes each year! How many Constitutional amendments has the ethanol or farming industries been able to make happen? :lol:

From a business perspective, the ethanol industry has and continues to be a threat to the petroleum industry at least as 'troublesome' as the power generation monopolies see roof-top PV. It's in their best interest to invest some of their vast fortunes to resist and discredit ethanol at every turn.

From a physics and chemistry perspective, however, it appears even GCC won't acknowledge that ethanol has NONE of what's wrong with gasoline.

Watch Jeremy Rifkin's talk from the sustainability conference from a few weeks back, or give his book "The Third Industrial Revolution" a read. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14559 It, along with 'Internal Combustion' by Black and 'Sleeping with the Devil' by Baer and 'The Car That Could' by Shnayerson show just how dysfunctional this country is when it comes to oil and power and the war for control of transportation. Then re-read the story on advanced biofuels and the Energy Security Act of 2007 with new eyes. ;)
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GRA
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:10 pm

AndyH wrote: You really like GCC, don't you? :lol:
It beats searching through innumerable data bases to find this stuff - it's all brought together in one spot, and easily searchable by topic. Ain't that there interweb grand? :D
AndyH wrote: The EIA says US production isn't meeting targets? No surprise there - we've already seen examples of this in this thread - along with the reason for it from actual producers. The number one reason ethanol is not the dominant fuel in this country is the same today as it's been since about 1920 - because the gasoline industry is putting more money into fighting ethanol than the ethanol industry makes each year! How many Constitutional amendments has the ethanol or farming industries been able to make happen? :lol:

From a business perspective, the ethanol industry has and continues to be a threat to the petroleum industry at least as 'troublesome' as the power generation monopolies see roof-top PV. It's in their best interest to invest some of their vast fortunes to resist and discredit ethanol at every turn.

From a physics and chemistry perspective, however, it appears even GCC won't acknowledge that ethanol has NONE of what's wrong with gasoline.

Watch Jeremy Rifkin's talk from the sustainability conference from a few weeks back, or give his book "The Third Industrial Revolution" a read. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14559 It, along with 'Internal Combustion' by Black and 'Sleeping with the Devil' by Baer and 'The Car That Could' by Shnayerson show just how dysfunctional this country is when it comes to oil and power and the war for control of transportation. Then re-read the story on advanced biofuels and the Energy Security Act of 2007 with new eyes. ;)
Sorry, don't have the time right now, and unless Rifkin's talk is captioned it isn't going to do me any good - my hearing has deteriorated to the point that even with my hearing aids, most people on video or TV sound like adults speaking to Charlie Brown ('wah wah - wah wah wah'). ISTR picking up "The Third Industrial Revolution" from the library at one point, but for some reason or other I didn't get to it, so I'll make another attempt.

I have read "The Car that Could" (it's been on my EV bibliography topic from the start - http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), and I consider it a textbook example of the numerous pressures that advance/retard the commercialization of a new technology, as well as those competing pressures due strictly to the design/sales/marketing of a car. I found "Internal Combustion" (also on the list) to be much less biased than expected, judging by the conspiracy theories that the jacket blurbs and the subtitle lead you to believe will inevitably follow, but still somewhat overwrought, and the author spends so much time telling us about his _arduous_ search to uncover sources etc. Haven't read "Sleeping with the Devil", but judging by the subtitle I doubt I'll find anything I haven't read many times before going back more than 20 years (although as I said, Black surprised me). I mean, gee, the Saudi Arabian government is corrupt, and their money corrupts us while simultaneously supporting Wahabi fundamentalism (less so since they've been attacked)? Boy, that's news :roll:
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:36 am

GRA wrote: Haven't read "Sleeping with the Devil", but judging by the subtitle I doubt I'll find anything I haven't read many times before going back more than 20 years (although as I said, Black surprised me). I mean, gee, the Saudi Arabian government is corrupt, and their money corrupts us while simultaneously supporting Wahabi fundamentalism (less so since they've been attacked)? Boy, that's news :roll:
No, that's not news. But thankfully it's not the point of the read. The point, as I see it, is that the author is a former CIA operative/analyst that spent most of his career working in the middle east (he knows many of the players by name and after shave) - he's able to provide a very frank view of actions of the US that aren't read in the mainstream media or even GCC. ;) It was the reflection of 'us' and our actions that shook my confidence.

Sorry - forgot about the hearing challenge. I'm finishing the last chapter of the Third Industrial Revolution and it's clear that the book will provide roughly the same info from the talk - it'll just take longer than 45 minutes. Enjoy!

Happy Saturday!
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AndyH
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:58 pm

GRA wrote:... I have read "The Car that Could" (it's been on my EV bibliography topic from the start - http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), ...
Thanks, BTW - I wasn't aware of your bibliography thread. Nice work!
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TomT
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Re: Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:35 pm

"The Environmental Protection Agency on Friday proposed reducing the amount of ethanol that is required to be mixed with the gasoline supply, the first time it has taken steps to slow down the drive to replace fossil fuels with renewable forms of energy."

I agree with the EPA's proposal and the rationel behind it...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/us/fo ... .html?_r=1&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by TomT on Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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