GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:30 pm

jlv wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:36 pm
You forgot the weight on the steering wheel to apply torque.


But this car wasn't on AP. AP won't go "a high rate of speed" when not on a divided highway - it is limited to no more than 5MPH over the speed limit.

I thought they'd removed that limitation after imposing it for a while. And of course, Tesla allowed A/P speeds more than 5 mph over on divided (but not limited access with grade-separated crossings) highways, which is outside the ODD and was a factor in two fatal accidents three years apart involving underrunning fully visible crossing semis in Florida. Preventing A/P use in such cases was one of the recommendations that NTSB made to both Tesla and the NHTSA, first in 2017 and then subsequently, and which so far has been ignored by both.
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cwerdna
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:54 am

CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat
After a fatal crash in Texas, we demonstrated how easy it is to defeat Autopilot’s driver monitoring
https://www.consumerreports.org/autonom ... vers-seat/

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:16 pm

A simple weight eh? Well I still put it on the operator, they are clearly going out of their way to make the car do something it is not designed to do.
Doing something similar to the GM system does sadly seem necessary. One has to make it as difficult as possible to bypass sadly. If they were only risking their own lives I might be OK with the Darwin awards but they risk others lives and damage to other people's property.

Others with comments about wording changing the name from autopilot I agree may indeed be necessary, it creates a false impression for some people. Even the Nissan Japan commericals for propilot bother me when Kimtaku takes his hands off the wheel, yes you can to grab a drink or something but even that can create a false impression in someone.

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SalisburySam
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:16 pm

GRA wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:46 pm
SalisburySam wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 am
As things become more and more idiot-proof, the world makes better idiots.

Yet, if a manufacturer simply ignores taking steps to prevent entirely forseeable idiotic behavior when it's in their power to do so, they shouldn't escape their own responsibility.
I agree...a bit. I think the problem is in the phrase "entirely foreseeable." After the fact many things are viewed as oh, they should've seen that coming, but no one does regardless of how possible or logical. And there are those pesky unintended consequences, also possible, logical, and likely unforeseen. Maybe a manufactured device enabled a certain act of stupidity, or didn't disable it's possibility, and maybe there's a culpability. I think it's a tiny one. Stupidity has its own rewards and punishments; for me without knowing all the details yet, I can't see much actual Tesla liability, although I'm sure they'll be sued to the heavens and the press will feast for hours until the next thing happens.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:12 pm

SalisburySam wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:16 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:46 pm
SalisburySam wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 am
As things become more and more idiot-proof, the world makes better idiots.

Yet, if a manufacturer simply ignores taking steps to prevent entirely forseeable idiotic behavior when it's in their power to do so, they shouldn't escape their own responsibility.
I agree...a bit. I think the problem is in the phrase "entirely foreseeable." After the fact many things are viewed as oh, they should've seen that coming, but no one does regardless of how possible or logical. And there are those pesky unintended consequences, also possible, logical, and likely unforeseen. Maybe a manufactured device enabled a certain act of stupidity, or didn't disable it's possibility, and maybe there's a culpability. I think it's a tiny one. Stupidity has its own rewards and punishments; for me without knowing all the details yet, I can't see much actual Tesla liability, although I'm sure they'll be sued to the heavens and the press will feast for hours until the next thing happens.

As I've mentioned, problems due to the lack of A/P driver engagement monitoring as well as allowing any ADAS or ADS to operate outside their ODD were foreseen, and Tesla and the other manufacturers as well as the NHTSA were specifically warned about these issues by the NTSB 4 years ago after the Williston crash, with the warnings repeated after subsequent fatal crashes.

Please read the NTSB comment letter on the NHTSA notice of proposed rulemaking. Search for "NTSB NHTSA 2020-0106-0617", it should be the second result, a PDF file from the NTSB dated Feb. 21, 2021. It's fifteen pages total and well worth the read, but the parts specifically referring to those two issues can be found on pages 6-9 starting at "Risk Mitigation Pertaining to Monitoring Driver Engagement" and continuing through "Risk Mitigation Pertaining to Operational Design Domain", plus the full list of NTSB recommendations on pages 13-15.

It also discusses AV testing on public roads, and the need for mandatory reporting by all manufacturers of specified data at regular intervals, so that manufacturers can't help or cherry pick the data to show their systems at their best, i.e. independent outside verification is needed.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:15 pm

SalisburySam wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:16 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:46 pm
SalisburySam wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 am
As things become more and more idiot-proof, the world makes better idiots.

Yet, if a manufacturer simply ignores taking steps to prevent entirely forseeable idiotic behavior when it's in their power to do so, they shouldn't escape their own responsibility.
I agree...a bit. I think the problem is in the phrase "entirely foreseeable." After the fact many things are viewed as oh, they should've seen that coming, but no one does regardless of how possible or logical. And there are those pesky unintended consequences, also possible, logical, and likely unforeseen. Maybe a manufactured device enabled a certain act of stupidity, or didn't disable it's possibility, and maybe there's a culpability. I think it's a tiny one. Stupidity has its own rewards and punishments; for me without knowing all the details yet, I can't see much actual Tesla liability, although I'm sure they'll be sued to the heavens and the press will feast for hours until the next thing happens.
Exactly. Deliberate misuse isn't something that can be safe-guarded against, otherwise drunk drivers would've been able to sue the car manufacturers. You can't prevent drivers from deliberately circumventing your safety measures, otherwise cruise control would've been banned a LONG time ago!
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon May 10, 2021 10:51 pm

Some more info, via ABG:
NTSB: Tesla owner started trip in driver's seat before fatal crash

The preliminary report offers no explanation as to the cause


https://www.autoblog.com/2021/05/10/tes ... sb-report/

Home security camera footage shows that the owner of a Tesla got into the driver's seat of the car shortly before a deadly crash in suburban Houston, according to a government report Monday.

But the preliminary report on the crash that killed two men doesn't explain the mystery of why authorities found no one behind the wheel of the car, which burst into flames after crashing about 550 feet (170 meters) from the owner's home. Nor does it conclusively say whether Tesla's “Autopilot” partially automated driver-assist system was operating at the time of the crash, although it appears unlikely.

The National Transportation Safety Board said it's still investigating all aspects of the crash. An onboard data storage device in the console, however, was destroyed by fire. A computer that records air bag and seat belt status as well as speed and acceleration was damaged and is being examined at an NTSB lab.

The NTSB said it tested a different Tesla vehicle on the same road, and the Autopilot driver-assist system could not be fully used. Investigators could not get the system's automated steering system to work, but were able to use Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

get the system's automated steering system to work, but were able to use Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

Autopilot needs both the cruise control and the automatic steering to function. Traffic Aware Cruise Control can keep the car a safe distance from vehicles in front of it, while autosteer keeps it in its own lane.

“The NTSB continues to collect data to analyze the crash dynamics, postmortem toxicology test results, seat belt use, occupant egress and electric vehicle fires,” the agency said in its report. “All aspects of the crash remain under investigation as the NTSB determines the probable cause. . . .”

Curiouser and curiouser. Direct link to report: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... 10510.aspx
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue May 11, 2021 2:58 pm

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:51 pm
Some more info, via ABG:
NTSB: Tesla owner started trip in driver's seat before fatal crash

The preliminary report offers no explanation as to the cause


https://www.autoblog.com/2021/05/10/tes ... sb-report/

Home security camera footage shows that the owner of a Tesla got into the driver's seat of the car shortly before a deadly crash in suburban Houston, according to a government report Monday.

But the preliminary report on the crash that killed two men doesn't explain the mystery of why authorities found no one behind the wheel of the car, which burst into flames after crashing about 550 feet (170 meters) from the owner's home. Nor does it conclusively say whether Tesla's “Autopilot” partially automated driver-assist system was operating at the time of the crash, although it appears unlikely.

The National Transportation Safety Board said it's still investigating all aspects of the crash. An onboard data storage device in the console, however, was destroyed by fire. A computer that records air bag and seat belt status as well as speed and acceleration was damaged and is being examined at an NTSB lab.

The NTSB said it tested a different Tesla vehicle on the same road, and the Autopilot driver-assist system could not be fully used. Investigators could not get the system's automated steering system to work, but were able to use Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

get the system's automated steering system to work, but were able to use Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

Autopilot needs both the cruise control and the automatic steering to function. Traffic Aware Cruise Control can keep the car a safe distance from vehicles in front of it, while autosteer keeps it in its own lane.

“The NTSB continues to collect data to analyze the crash dynamics, postmortem toxicology test results, seat belt use, occupant egress and electric vehicle fires,” the agency said in its report. “All aspects of the crash remain under investigation as the NTSB determines the probable cause. . . .”

Curiouser and curiouser. Direct link to report: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... 10510.aspx
There's nothing curious about it. The driver lost control and crashed within 550 ft of his driveway. The doors were jammed shut from the crash (which happens - remember Paul Walker?), and the driver tried to flee through the backseat, but didn't make it (that's why he was in the backseat). We've long known that autopilot wasn't a contributing factor and this report was released to settle the FUD.

The constable at the scene should never have claimed that no one was driving the car. He should've stopped with "no one was in the driver's seat" and claimed anything as fact beyond that.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue May 11, 2021 4:42 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:58 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:51 pm
Some more info, via ABG:
NTSB: Tesla owner started trip in driver's seat before fatal crash

The preliminary report offers no explanation as to the cause


https://www.autoblog.com/2021/05/10/tes ... sb-report/

Home security camera footage shows that the owner of a Tesla got into the driver's seat of the car shortly before a deadly crash in suburban Houston, according to a government report Monday.

But the preliminary report on the crash that killed two men doesn't explain the mystery of why authorities found no one behind the wheel of the car, which burst into flames after crashing about 550 feet (170 meters) from the owner's home. Nor does it conclusively say whether Tesla's “Autopilot” partially automated driver-assist system was operating at the time of the crash, although it appears unlikely.

The National Transportation Safety Board said it's still investigating all aspects of the crash. An onboard data storage device in the console, however, was destroyed by fire. A computer that records air bag and seat belt status as well as speed and acceleration was damaged and is being examined at an NTSB lab.

The NTSB said it tested a different Tesla vehicle on the same road, and the Autopilot driver-assist system could not be fully used. Investigators could not get the system's automated steering system to work, but were able to use Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

get the system's automated steering system to work, but were able to use Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

Autopilot needs both the cruise control and the automatic steering to function. Traffic Aware Cruise Control can keep the car a safe distance from vehicles in front of it, while autosteer keeps it in its own lane.

“The NTSB continues to collect data to analyze the crash dynamics, postmortem toxicology test results, seat belt use, occupant egress and electric vehicle fires,” the agency said in its report. “All aspects of the crash remain under investigation as the NTSB determines the probable cause. . . .”

Curiouser and curiouser. Direct link to report: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... 10510.aspx
There's nothing curious about it. The driver lost control and crashed within 550 ft of his driveway. The doors were jammed shut from the crash (which happens - remember Paul Walker?), and the driver tried to flee through the backseat, but didn't make it (that's why he was in the backseat). We've long known that autopilot wasn't a contributing factor and this report was released to settle the FUD.

The constable at the scene should never have claimed that no one was driving the car. He should've stopped with "no one was in the driver's seat" and claimed anything as fact beyond that.

You know for a fact that the driver tried to flee through the backseat? Shouldn't you stop with "no one was in the driver's seat" and not claim anything as fact beyond that?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue May 11, 2021 4:54 pm

GRA wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:42 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:58 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:51 pm
Some more info, via ABG:

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/05/10/tes ... sb-report/





Curiouser and curiouser. Direct link to report: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... 10510.aspx
There's nothing curious about it. The driver lost control and crashed within 550 ft of his driveway. The doors were jammed shut from the crash (which happens - remember Paul Walker?), and the driver tried to flee through the backseat, but didn't make it (that's why he was in the backseat). We've long known that autopilot wasn't a contributing factor and this report was released to settle the FUD.

The constable at the scene should never have claimed that no one was driving the car. He should've stopped with "no one was in the driver's seat" and claimed anything as fact beyond that.

You know for a fact that the driver tried to flee through the backseat? Shouldn't you stop with "no one was in the driver's seat" and not claim anything as fact beyond that?
My original hypothesis (posted last week) was that the driver fled the scene. Now that they have conclusive evidence that the driver died at the scene, many suppositions can be laid down to rest:
- The driver was found dead in the back seat.
- Driver was seen entering the driver's seat and driving away by local security cameras.
- car had 550 ft to accelerate to impact speed.

Indeed, an alien or ghost could've intervened and moved the driver, or maybe the recoil from impact could've ejected the driver into the back seat, but Occam's razor rules out the first possibility, and newton's first law rules out the second. If you don't start with the assumption that Tesla's autopilot is at fault, then the truth is much simpler to grasp.
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