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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:15 pm

I'm still waiting for Car and No Driver magazine to publish their review.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
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edatoakrun
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:08 am

Formal defect investigation by NHTSA now underway.

I couldn't find the letter reference in a quick search earlier this AM.
NHTSA seeks answers on fatal Tesla Autopilot crash

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration sent Tesla Motors Inc. a detailed list of questions regarding its Autopilot feature and a May 7 fatal crash in Florida in which the system was in use.

The nine-page letter dated July 8 was made public Tuesday and requires the Palo Alto, Calif., automaker to file responses in the coming weeks. The letter is a standard part of a formal defect investigation by the auto safety agency. Some answers are due by July 29 and others by Aug. 26, NHTSA said...
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016071 ... ilot-crash
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:36 pm

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:29 am

edatoakrun wrote:Another report (second-hand, unconfirmed ?) of an X crashing (no injuries, X totaled) while on autopilot, discussed here:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... day.73308/
This covers the above.
More coverage on this Montana crash:
http://electrek.co/2016/07/12/tesla-mod ... statement/
http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2 ... /86956048/

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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:52 pm

Oh, man. From the above:
“This vehicle was being driven along an undivided mountain road shortly after midnight with autosteer enabled. The data suggests that the driver’s hands were not on the steering wheel, as no force was detected on the steering wheel for over 2 minutes after autosteer was engaged (even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel, will be detected). This is contrary to the terms of use that are agreed to when enabling the feature and the notification presented in the instrument cluster each time it is activated.
To me, this is just damning for Tesla, and out of their own mouths. Why on earth would they even let Auto-Pilot be engaged on a road that they say it's unsuitable for, at night yet, and then let the car drive itself for "over two minutes' with no hands-on detected? They deserve to get seriously spanked by NHTSA/lawsuits on this, as it's completely irresponsible behavior. People will do stupid stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to enable them to do so, when you possess the means to prevent it.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DanCar
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:50 pm

GRA wrote:To me, this is just damning for Tesla, and out of their own mouths. Why on earth would they even let Auto-Pilot be engaged on a road that they say it's unsuitable for, at night yet, and then let the car drive itself for "over two minutes' with no hands-on detected? They deserve to get seriously spanked by NHTSA/lawsuits on this, as it's completely irresponsible behavior. People will do stupid stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to enable them to do so, when you possess the means to prevent it.
I'm hoping companies, the government, and people, let me do stupid stuff if I chose to do so, although I do expect to be well informed of the risks.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:38 pm

DanCar wrote:I'm hoping companies, the government, and people, let me do stupid stuff if I chose to do so, although I do expect to be well informed of the risks.
I voluntarily engage in many pursuits that have a much higher than average risk factor, and I'm a firm believer in the right to terminal stupidity. That right ends when it puts at risk people who haven't volunteered to be participants. So, if you want to be the star of the latest installment of 'Jackass' and take a chance on injuring or killing yourself, be my guest. But the second you put unsuspecting and unwilling members of the public at risk by your stupidity, you've crossed the line.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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abasile
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:10 pm

GRA wrote:To me, this is just damning for Tesla, and out of their own mouths. Why on earth would they even let Auto-Pilot be engaged on a road that they say it's unsuitable for, at night yet, and then let the car drive itself for "over two minutes' with no hands-on detected? They deserve to get seriously spanked by NHTSA/lawsuits on this, as it's completely irresponsible behavior. People will do stupid stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to enable them to do so, when you possess the means to prevent it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tesla restricts the use of AutoPilot by road/location/time. It seems to me this is the right approach. Introducing use restrictions would add more software logic that could potentially go wrong, and worse, lead to Tesla being blamed if a driver happens to not be prevented from using AutoPilot in some circumstances. Rather than encourage endless debates over how/when/where the software should disallow AutoPilot, it makes sense to me to have that be the driver's call, and to presume that the driver is exercising appropriate control and oversight over the operation of the car. People who are not willing to behave like adults, and take responsibility for their driving even if assisted by modern "convenience" features, do not belong on the road. (Perhaps that's another discussion...)
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
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TimLee
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:23 pm

abasile wrote:... People who are not willing to behave like adults, and take responsibility for their driving even if assisted by modern "convenience" features, do not belong on the road. (Perhaps that's another discussion...)
Clearly a lot of that happening.

Traffic fatalities have started increasing due to lots of distracted driving.
Part of why many want autonomous vehicles ASAP.

But the poorly named Tesla system left a technology savy driver lulled into the perception it was autonomous which it is NOT and a behaviour pattern that resulted in his torso being sheared in half going under a tractor trailer.

A horrendous result.

Why the mainstream manufacturers that are more risk adverse than risk taking Tesla are doing two orders of magnitude more testing BEFORE providing such systems.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

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abasile
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:42 pm

TimLee wrote:But the poorly named Tesla system left a technology savy driver lulled into the perception it was autonomous which it is NOT and a behaviour pattern that resulted in his torso being sheared in half going under a tractor trailer.
This was truly a tragedy, and my prayers are with his family. However, I don't think the name of the system was the key issue that led to that accident. Rather, it appears that, from his experience using it, Joshua Brown became overly confident in the robustness of the AutoPilot system. Had he been using an identically-named though less polished system in a different brand of automobile, I doubt he would have developed such overconfidence. Perhaps the most important lesson in all of this is, as others have pointed out, that human beings are often overly quick to trust automated systems. To counter this tendency, I'm guessing Tesla will be forced to put more "nagging" in the system.
TimLee wrote:Why the mainstream manufacturers that are more risk adverse than risk taking Tesla are doing two orders of magnitude more testing BEFORE providing such systems.
That may be true, but I'm not convinced that lack of testing was the issue here. After all, as of the time of the fatality, Tesla customers had accumulated roughly 100 million miles with AutoPilot enabled. The real challenge, I think, is that the current AutoPilot system is simply not capable of fully autonomous driving under any real-world conditions, nor could it be with the current sensors and computing hardware. For what it is, it's quite impressive, better than competing systems. Hence the overconfidence in it.

Tesla will undoubtedly keep making AutoPilot better, including addressing the shortcomings that led to Joshua Brown's untimely death. Some, including myself, are speculating that Tesla will release V2 of the AutoPilot hardware soon (if NHTSA/NTSB don't nix that). But even if AutoPilot succeeds in greatly reducing accidents and fatalities compared to human-only driving, the media and the public will probably continue to be very exacting when accidents do occur.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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