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RegGuheert
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:49 am

"No Griswalds were injured in the making of this film." ;)
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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DanCar
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:15 pm

GRA wrote:
DanCar wrote:I'm hoping companies, the government, and people, let me do stupid stuff if I chose to do so, although I do expect to be well informed of the risks.
I voluntarily engage in many pursuits that have a much higher than average risk factor, and I'm a firm believer in the right to terminal stupidity. That right ends when it puts at risk people who haven't volunteered to be participants. So, if you want to be the star of the latest installment of 'Jackass' and take a chance on injuring or killing yourself, be my guest. But the second you put unsuspecting and unwilling members of the public at risk by your stupidity, you've crossed the line.
If we are opposed to risk should we have a tired detector and put people behind bars when driving tired?
2013 Leaf SL leased 3/10/2013

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:35 pm

DanCar wrote:Would it be more impactful if Consumer reports requested that Pokemon Go be turned off?
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/07/14/ ... inues.html
Does Autopilot save lives?
CR has repeatedly called for less infotainment available to drivers in cars, along with controls for same designed to minimize driver distraction. The auto companies say that they'd like to do that, but the only way they can attract the Millennials into cars is by giving them lots of electronic whiz-bangs, which is why I want to see autonomous cars developed before the Millennials and Gen Z kill all of us off through distracted driving.

As a pedestrian/cyclist, up through 2006 I estimate that by my own alertness I avoided serious injury or death from distracted drivers, on average, about once every two weeks. From 2007 on, it's been more like every ten days, AFAICT the difference due solely to the ubiquity of smart phones since then.
Last edited by GRA on Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:52 pm

DanCar wrote:
GRA wrote:
DanCar wrote:I'm hoping companies, the government, and people, let me do stupid stuff if I chose to do so, although I do expect to be well informed of the risks.
I voluntarily engage in many pursuits that have a much higher than average risk factor, and I'm a firm believer in the right to terminal stupidity. That right ends when it puts at risk people who haven't volunteered to be participants. So, if you want to be the star of the latest installment of 'Jackass' and take a chance on injuring or killing yourself, be my guest. But the second you put unsuspecting and unwilling members of the public at risk by your stupidity, you've crossed the line.
If we are opposed to risk should we have a tired detector and put people behind bars when driving tired?
Hopefully, we can all agree that the correct answer to drowsy drivers isn't to let them turn over the driving to an inadequate autonomous driving system, but to tell them to get off the road and take a nap or switch drivers. As an aid to the former, from 2009 in some models (this is Copyright Daimler-Benz, but as it's safety-related and providing positive advertising for them, I doubt they'd mind the longish quote):
ATTENTION ASSIST: Drowsiness-detection system warns drivers to prevent them falling asleep momentarily
http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/ ... id=9361586
The risk of falling asleep momentarily is at its greatest on long-distance journeys in the dark or in unchanging conditions because this is when drivers are most likely to suffer a lapse in attention. The sheer monotony further heightens the risk of falling asleep at the wheel. Studies show that, after just four hours of non-stop driving, drivers' reaction times can be up to 50 percent slower. So the risk of an accident doubles during this time. And the risk increases more than eight-fold after just six hours of non-stop driving! . . .

ATTENTION ASSIST observes the driver's behaviour and, at the start of every trip, produces an individual driver profile that is then continuously compared with current sensor data. This permanent form of monitoring is important for detecting the floating transition from awakeness to drowsiness and for warning the driver in plenty of time. The system is active at speeds of between 80 and 180 km/h.

Steering behaviour as the key indicator of drowsiness

As well as the speed, lateral acceleration and longitudinal acceleration, the Mercedes system also detects steering wheel movements, use of the turn indicators or pedals and certain control inputs, not to mention external influences such as side winds or road unevenness, for example. Observation of steering behaviour has proven to be extremely meaningful as drowsy drivers find it difficult to steer a precise course in their lane. They make minor steering errors that are often corrected quickly and abruptly. Intensive tests carried out by the Mercedes engineers, involving more than 550 drivers, show that this effect occurs at a very early stage when drowsiness kicks in – often before the dangerous situation in which the driver falls asleep momentarily. . . .

Based on these data, ATTENTION ASSIST calculates an individual behavioural pattern during the first few minutes of every trip. This pattern is then continuously compared with the current steering behaviour and the current driving situation, courtesy of the vehicle's electronic control unit. This process allows the system to detect typical indicators of drowsiness and warn the driver by emitting an audible signal and flashing up an unequivocal instruction on the display in the instrument cluster: "ATTENTION ASSIST. Break!"
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

pchilds
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:14 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Not really an argument for or against, but some of you may recall a lawsuit about a decade ago: an elderly couple bought an RV, and set out on a vacation trip. After getting on the freeway, they set the cruise control, and...both went into the back for a cup of coffee. The RV crashed, of course, and they sued, arguing that the salesman hadn't adequately explained how the cruise control system worked, and what its limitations were.
Urban legend, never happened.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:39 am

DanCar wrote:...If we are opposed to risk should we have a tired detector and put people behind bars when driving tired?
Yes and no.

In fact, I would expect the safety improvements from using technology to monitor drivers for incapability, whether caused by fatigue or other disability, would probably be far greater per-dollar-spent than the investments currently being made to produce semi-autonomous tech, such as autoplilot.

No need to arrest those that are too tired, too over-medicated, or just too incompetent, to drive.

Just have the car pull itself over and call itself a tow truck...

Back on-topic, as I have said before, I believe the real benefits of autonomous vehicle technology will only occur when you completely remove the human, the weak point, from the chain of command.

And since autopilot clearly is technologically inadequate to meet this goal, it is unlikely to be allowed to continue as a partial solution, in its present configuration.
Is Tesla Pushing Autopilot On Public Roads Too Fast?

...Volvo had warned about Tesla’s Autopilot much before the current blame game amid the recent crashes. According to The Verge, Volvo senior technical leader of crash avoidance, noted technological concerns similar to those that are being raised now and called it an “unsupervised wannabe.” He says it gives an impression of a fully autonomous feature when it is not and promises more than what it can actually do.

Similarly, the futuristic Mercedes-Benz’s F015 autonomous car is said to come no sooner than 2020, despite the company launching a successful prototype last year. Mercedes Benz’ head of active safety, Jochen Haab, believes autonomous cars are like a pregnant women: “You can’t be half-pregnant or partially pregnant and a car can’t be partially autonomous”...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bidnessetc/ ... 364d686364
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:51 pm

Via ievs:
Lawyers Chime In On Tesla’s Autopilot Crash Cases
http://insideevs.com/lawyers-chime-in-o ... ash-cases/
It seems that lawyers agree that simply warning drivers to take over when the Autopilot fails would not hold up in a court of law. Just the name “Autopilot” suggests that the car is supposed to drive itself and the hands are expected to be free at times. Automotive liability lawyer, Lynn Shumway, explained to the Automotive News:

“The moment I saw Tesla calling it Autopilot, I thought it was a bad move. Just by the name, aren’t you telling people not to pay attention?’’. . .

Auto Lawyer, Tab Turner, said:

“There’s a concept in the legal profession called an attractive nuisance. These devices are much that way right now. They’re all trying to sell them as a wave of the future, but putting in fine print, ‘Don’t do anything but monitor it.’ It’s a dangerous concept. Warnings alone are never the answer to a design problem. . . .”

If a case such as the Tesla Model S fatality were to go to court, Tesla could insist that drivers were warned and that in the end the driver is responsible. However, lawyers must only simply find an issue with the technology. If it can be proven that the system is defective, or could have worked better, or may have caused the accident, Tesla or any other company will have no leg to stand on.

Regarding the fatal accident in Florida, Tesla reported that the sensors failed to see the white trailer against the bright sky. Lawyers could argue that it surely should have noticed. Steve Van Gaasbeck, an auto products lawyer in San Antonio, Texas commented:

“It’s great technology, I hope they get this right and put people like us out of business. There’s really no excuse for missing an 18-wheeler. . . .’’
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:50 pm

...There’s really no excuse for missing an 18-wheeler. . . .’’
He didn't miss it, it was a direct hit.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:59 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
...There’s really no excuse for missing an 18-wheeler. . . .’’
He didn't miss it, it was a direct hit.
*Rimshot* He's here all week, folks.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:39 pm

Try the veal.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

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