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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:30 pm
by GRA
IEVS: I
Watch Tesla Model 3 On Autopilot Crash Into Overturned Semi Truck On Highway

https://insideevs.com/news/426312/video ... ped-truck/


We already knew A/P couldn't recognize the side of a trailer. We now know it can't recognize the top of one either.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:22 pm
by webeleafowners
GRA wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:30 pm
IEVS: I
Watch Tesla Model 3 On Autopilot Crash Into Overturned Semi Truck On Highway

https://insideevs.com/news/426312/video ... ped-truck/


We already knew A/P couldn't recognize the side of a trailer. We now know it can't recognize the top of one either.
Other than AEB (automatic emergency breaking) what part of Autopilot would cause the car to stop? AEB will slow the car down but not bring it to a stop. As well, one report indicates the driver says he had TACC on but not Autopilot. Lots of questions that haven’t been answered yet.

The guy must have been asleep...or high...or just a moron.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:00 pm
by LeftieBiker
Other than AEB (automatic emergency breaking) what part of Autopilot would cause the car to stop? AEB will slow the car down but not bring it to a stop.
I think you meant that AP won't stop the car, while AEB will? Every AEB system I've seen will stop the car.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:18 pm
by cwerdna
LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:00 pm
Other than AEB (automatic emergency breaking) what part of Autopilot would cause the car to stop? AEB will slow the car down but not bring it to a stop.
I think you meant that AP won't stop the car, while AEB will? Every AEB system I've seen will stop the car.
Tesla's will not if driving above about 30 mph. See page 112 of https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... ica_en.pdf.
Automatic Emergency Braking
The forward looking camera(s) and the radar sensor are designed to determine the distance from a detected object traveling in front of Model 3. When a frontal collision is considered unavoidable, Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to apply the brakes to reduce the severity of the impact.
...
If driving 35 mph (56 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 30 mph (50 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 26 mph (40 km/h).
Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h).
There are also warnings like on page 88
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and, especially in situations when you are driving over
50 mph (80 km/h), may not brake/ decelerate when a vehicle or object is only partially in the driving lane or when a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary or slow-moving vehicle or object is in front of you. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
and page 97
Warning: Navigate on Autopilot may not recognize or detect oncoming vehicles, stationary objects, and special-use lanes such as those used exclusively for bikes, carpools, emergency vehicles, etc. Remain alert at all times and be prepared to take immediate action. Failure to do so can cause damage, injury or death.
There's very frequent confusion on "TMC" about this. You can find some by Googling for site:teslamotorsclub.com why didn't aeb stop or site:teslamotorsclub.com aeb stationary.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:54 pm
by LeftieBiker
Now that I think about it, AEB is usually described as a low speed feature. Earlier Leafs have something like 'automatic braking assist' that slams on the brakes if the car thinks you are trying to brake hard, and won't disengage until the car has stopped. It will also, IIRC, engage at higher speeds - maybe up to 55MPH? It is not popular with those who have encountered it. ;)

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:04 pm
by cwerdna
Back to AEB, I figured I'd resurface https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=565751#p565751 which I just remembered.

The guy who hit those orange construction barrels while he briefly (?) dozed off on AP at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-3857290 said "I expect AEB to recognize something the size of a 50-gallon drum when it can recognize something the size of a small human. THAT is what I expect. " His thread title was "Automatic Emergency Braking Failure, the Movie".

Movie at

Code: Select all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r4nS5EjjQ
.

There's too much confusion esp. w/Tesla's intentionally confusing marketing names and moving targets like "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving". I can't find my post on TMC right now but previously, i'd suggested that there be MANDATORY, non-skippable audio that Tesla FORCES people to listen to re: AP, AEB, FSD, etc. limitations before they can activate AP, TACC, etc. w/caveats since people just don't read manuals (my response on that at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-2533337). Heck, it could even be narrated by Elon.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:35 pm
by GRA
webeleafowners wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:22 pm
The guy must have been asleep...or high...or just a moron.

Or, he was just a typical human being who's subject to distraction/zoning out for any number of reasons (this has never happened to you even when you're in complete control of the car?). Who's encouraged to do so by a system which can handle most routine driving chores, but not the uncommon* situations which are the most likely to lead to accidents, and one which, as cwerdna notes, very few owners understand the limitations of.

* Or even common ones, like cross traffic.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:21 pm
by webeleafowners
GRA wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:35 pm
webeleafowners wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:22 pm
The guy must have been asleep...or high...or just a moron.

Or, he was just a typical human being who's subject to distraction/zoning out for any number of reasons (this has never happened to you even when you're in complete control of the car?). Who's encouraged to do so by a system which can handle most routine driving chores, but not the uncommon* situations which are the most likely to lead to accidents, and one which, as cwerdna notes, very few owners understand the limitations of.

* Or even common ones, like cross traffic.
Nope. There is more to this story. Was he texting, distracted, he had like a week to see it coming. No rational person would wait for Autopilot or any systym to react to what was obvious something blocking the road in plain daylight. More info will come out.

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:54 am
by GRA
webeleafowners wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:21 pm
GRA wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:35 pm
webeleafowners wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:22 pm
The guy must have been asleep...or high...or just a moron.

Or, he was just a typical human being who's subject to distraction/zoning out for any number of reasons (this has never happened to you even when you're in complete control of the car?). Who's encouraged to do so by a system which can handle most routine driving chores, but not the uncommon* situations which are the most likely to lead to accidents, and one which, as cwerdna notes, very few owners understand the limitations of.

* Or even common ones, like cross traffic.
Nope. There is more to this story. Was he texting, distracted, he had like a week to see it coming. No rational person would wait for Autopilot or any systym to react to what was obvious something blocking the road in plain daylight. More info will come out.

Aargh! I'd written a long, detailed reply, but when I went to post it MNL said I had to sign in (again!), and when I went back after doing so it had disappeared. It's happened more than once.

Of course he was distracted/ zoned out. Such systems encourage that behavior, and even well-trained, highly competent commercial/military pilots who are fully aware of such system's limitations are liable to do the same given long periods where little or no action is required of them. The average driver lacks those advantages, so expecting better behavior from them is unrealistic, which is why highway engineers design roads and supporting equipment (signs etc.) to allow for human behavior as it is, not some rarely attained ideal. They believe it is their moral if not legal responsibility to do so. Do you believe companies designing vehicles to travel on those roads are entitled to be held to a lower standard?

As examples of such human factors road design my original post discussed engineers adding curves and grades to long straight sections to avoid highway hypnosis, Bott's dots/rumble strips, lane, center and shoulder lines, Jersey barriers in medians and guard rails on curves, sign colors, shapes, sizes, fonts and placements, etc. You'll have to do your own reading on those, cause I'm not retyping all that on my phone. A good place to start is "The Road Taken" by Henry Petrosky: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-road- ... q=28403125

and if you really want to do a deep dive there's M G. Lay's "Ways of the World: A History of the World's Roads and of the Vehicles that Used Them":

https://books.google.com/books/about/Wa ... ead_button

For a real snoozefest there's the "Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices", all 860 pagesof it: thanks to it anywhere you drive in the U.S. you'll see signs and signals that mean exactly the same thing, a situation that took several decades after the intro of the automobile to come about, with the attendant higher accident rate due to driver confusion when in an unfamiliar area, until standardization was achieved:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Manual-on-Un ... vgQAvD_BwE

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:18 am
by webeleafowners
GRA wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:54 am
webeleafowners wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:21 pm
GRA wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:35 pm



Or, he was just a typical human being who's subject to distraction/zoning out for any number of reasons (this has never happened to you even when you're in complete control of the car?). Who's encouraged to do so by a system which can handle most routine driving chores, but not the uncommon* situations which are the most likely to lead to accidents, and one which, as cwerdna notes, very few owners understand the limitations of.

* Or even common ones, like cross traffic.
Nope. There is more to this story. Was he texting, distracted, he had like a week to see it coming. No rational person would wait for Autopilot or any systym to react to what was obvious something blocking the road in plain daylight. More info will come out.

Aargh! I'd written a long, detailed reply, but when I went to post it MNL said I had to sign in (again!), and when I went back after doing so it had disappeared. It's happened more than once.

Of course he was distracted/ zoned out. Such systems encourage that behavior, and even well-trained, highly competent commercial/military pilots who are fully aware of such system's limitations are liable to do the same given long periods where little or no action is required of them. The average driver lacks those advantages, so expecting better behavior from them is unrealistic, which is why highway engineers design roads and supporting equipment (signs etc.) to allow for human behavior as it is, not some rarely attained ideal. They believe it is their moral if not legal responsibility to do so. Do you believe companies designing vehicles to travel on those roads are entitled to be held to a lower standard?

As examples of such human factors road design my original post discussed engineers adding curves and grades to long straight sections to avoid highway hypnosis, Bott's dots/rumble strips, lane, center and shoulder lines, Jersey barriers in medians and guard rails on curves, sign colors, shapes, sizes, fonts and placements, etc. You'll have to do your own reading on those, cause I'm not retyping all that on my phone. A good place to start is "The Road Taken" by Henry Petrosky, and if you really want to do a deep dive there's M G. Lay's "The Ways of the World". For a real snoozefest there's the "Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices", which is why anywhere you drive in the U.S. you'll see signs and signals that mean exactly the same thing, a situation that took several decades after the intro of the automobile to come about, with the attendant higher accident rate due to driver confusion when in an unfamiliar area until standardization was achieved.
No need to retype. You made your point well and it is thought provoking. I get what you are saying re human behaviour. It’s an interesting problem and solutions are not going to be easy. From personal experience I can tell you I am a safer driver in my wife’s Tesla than in my wife’s Leaf. I drive with TACC on all the time and Autopilot on highways. And yah it’s a crutch. I’m late fifties and know even now my driving skills are not as good as they were 20 years ago...and to be honest have never been a great driver. (No accidents to date though). Where am I going with this? I don’t like it when news articles point out that yet another Tesla was in an accident and then subtly implies the car was on Autopilot...as if Autopilot was supposedly the cause of the accident.

Anyway, your typing was not in vane as it was thought provoking.

Cheers from Canada.