WetEV
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:02 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:50 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:40 pm
downeykp wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:53 pm
But the dems would have to expand to 13 jurists. That would be a lot. But why not?
Why not 11?

Sure, it leaves a narrow R majority on the Court, but that makes it closer to "tit for tat" rather than "we win".

Would you go out and recruit a 50 million dollar baseball team with the intention of losing the Series by a somewhat smaller number of runs than would happen with your five million dollar team? Or would you perhaps actually try to win? Just curious...
Politics isn't baseball.

Longer answer is that democracy needs both the losers and the winners to keep talking and to de-escalate conflicts.

Somehow we need to filter out the noise and trolls, and have serious discussions.
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gncndad
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:08 am

WetEV wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:02 am

Politics isn't baseball.

Longer answer is that democracy needs both the losers and the winners to keep talking and to de-escalate conflicts.

Somehow we need to filter out the noise and trolls, and have serious discussions.
Exactly! Eight years ago, I wouldn't allow my son to join the Young Democrats at his Arlington, VA HS unless he insisted that the faculty advisor have monthly meetings with the Young Republicans. Faculty advisor refused. My son didn't join.

We have substituted the "Art of Negotiation" with "How to win at any cost." Belligerence reigns at the moment.
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:15 am

gncndad wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:08 am
WetEV wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:02 am

Politics isn't baseball.

Longer answer is that democracy needs both the losers and the winners to keep talking and to de-escalate conflicts.

Somehow we need to filter out the noise and trolls, and have serious discussions.
Exactly! Eight years ago, I wouldn't allow my son to join the Young Democrats at his Arlington, VA HS unless he insisted that the faculty advisor have monthly meetings with the Young Republicans. Faculty advisor refused. My son didn't join.

We have substituted the "Art of Negotiation" with "How to win at any cost." Belligerence reigns at the moment.
True

But if democrats play the compromise game, don't expand the court, and keep their word and the republicans play their current game of win at any cost, and don't keep their word - and voters do not care, then what? Where do we end up?
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Nubo
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:32 am

danrjones wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:15 pm
Nubo wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:12 am

RBG herself said this was a bad idea and 9 is the right number. Where does it end? Expand to 11 and then the next GOP majority expands it to 21? And besides which it would destroy any goodwill for a newly-established democrat majority in the Senate.

Dems just need to suck it up and accept the consequences of the last election. The GOP behavior regarding SCOTUS in 2016 was scandalous but they got away with it. Too late now. Anyone expecting them to play by the same imaginary rule this time around is delusional. A lot of key elements of government integrity seem to boil down to nothing more than gentlemen's agreements. These fail when we do not have gentlemen in office. Some things need to be codified I think. Put some hard requirements around the Senate's "advise and consent" obligation.

As far as the next Justice, the mere act of Trump appointing them does not necessarily guarantee years of abysmal opinions. And if it does then public opinion will have to work in its slow but inexorable way to swing the pendulum back. Sometimes you just have to accept your losses and keep your eyes on what matters. In this case it's defeating Trumpism in November. Because if we don't I fear this country may not recover.
Not so sure about that. The democrats are fully within their legal right to expand the supreme court, just like the Republicans are within their right to ram one through despite blocking Obama's. the way you word it makes it sound like they should not exercise their legal power to do what they were elected to do. That's exactly what the GOP is doing, and did, to Obama.

I hear what you are saying, that just because one party does something "naughty" doesn't mean another should.
But legally there is nothing that says they cannot, and so why shouldn't they expand it? Who decided expanding it was playing dirty anyway? Maybe its time for a change.
Will the GOP do it in return? Maybe so.
And then maybe, just maybe, citizens will reject both parties and find something more sane. Or maybe not.
If we get into one-upmanship with the court's size, it would lose all legitimacy as an independent branch of government. We can't afford that.
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:44 am

But isn't that the problem? They are not really interpreting the Constitution anymore. They are interpreting what the politicians want them to interpret. They are deciding via politics who should and should not become president, 2000 and unfortunately 2020.
What are the odds that this election ends up in the Supreme Court?
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WetEV
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:53 am

Nubo wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:32 am
If we get into one-upmanship with the court's size, it would lose all legitimacy as an independent branch of government. We can't afford that.
For Trump, that is a feature, not a problem. Trump wants the last and only word.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:25 am

Somehow we need to filter out the noise and trolls, and have serious discussions.
This thread has been, IMO, a serious discussion. What do you consider "noise" and 'trolling'...?

Trying to keep the Supreme Court functioning as something other than a way to cancel progressive legislation - much of it long-established law - is not "one-upmanship." It is an effort to keep the Third Branch of government working as intended: as a check on bad legislation and illegal Executive branch behavior. The conservative Catholic judge, whose name escapes my sleep-fogged brain at the moment, thinks that precedent, which is pretty much the basis for the court system, is much less important than it has been considered, and shouldn't stop Roe v Wade from being overturned. That principle, if applied, would also be used to gut environmental regulations, which need to be strengthened, not weakened.
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:07 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:25 am
Somehow we need to filter out the noise and trolls, and have serious discussions.
This thread has been, IMO, a serious discussion. What do you consider "noise" and 'trolling'...?
I don't believe WetEV was referring to this thread, but our current culture. I agree, this thread has remained quite civil, which is refreshing.
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WetEV
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:18 pm

gncndad wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:07 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:25 am
Somehow we need to filter out the noise and trolls, and have serious discussions.
This thread has been, IMO, a serious discussion. What do you consider "noise" and 'trolling'...?
I don't believe WetEV was referring to this thread, but our current culture. I agree, this thread has remained quite civil, which is refreshing.
Exactly.
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Re: RIP RBG

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:24 pm

I propose the Democrats set the number of Supreme Court justices to 9 + number of serving justices with over 18 years tenure. That would be 11 next year, barring the departure of Thomas or Breyer. The law could also suggest a tradition of retiring after 18 years; if everyone did that, it would be typical for each 4 year presidency to result in two nominations.

I'd happily go for a mandatory 18 year term limit, but that would require a Constitutional amendment, since "during good Behavior" is interpreted to mean lifetime.

Cheers Wayne

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