rmay635703
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:42 pm

Terraforming Mars using human powers would require a nuclear cascade in the core of the planet, the earth has a nuclear element to its core but Mars molten core cooled billions of years ago, assumably because it ran out of materials to react.

Having a molten core is the only way of keeping a magnetic field and viable atmosphere intact, even if we could create an atmosphere for Mars it would burn away without a molten core and strong magnetic field

WetEV
Posts: 4425
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:42 pm

goldbrick wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:16 pm
I think it says a lot about this concept that the original idea started as a very, very tall tower, inspired by the Eiffel tower. I don't completely understand how this would enable a 90+% decrease in the cost of putting things in space but since t's currently impossible with today's technology maybe no one does.
Most of the energy in a rocket is wasted. An elevator could be very efficient. Far less energy needed, and can be electrical rather than chemical.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 17078
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:23 pm

This all goes back, for me, to "escape velocity." I never understood this concept, but figured it was my limited grasp of higher mathematical functions. It turns out, though, that "escape velocity" is actually just an engineering construct: it's how fast a rocket carrying a limited supply of fuel has to go to 'escape' Earth's gravity when the fuel run out. In reality, if you have some non-rocket method of getting into orbit, or have a rocket with virtually unlimited fuel, you can do it as slowly as you like. And with a space elevator you can do it slowly enough that you save 90% of the energy a rocket would use, because you aren't accelerating a vast cloud of gasses to ridiculous velocities just to use the reaction to move a modest payload up. Just think of two cars racing at a dragstrip: one is a rocket-powered monstrosity, and the other a normal-sized electric car. The rocket-car will win the race, but the EV will still go fast, while using a tiny fraction of the energy.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6363
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:49 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:23 pm
It turns out, though, that "escape velocity" is actually just an engineering construct: it's how fast a rocket carrying a limited supply of fuel has to go to 'escape' Earth's gravity when the fuel run out.
It does not have to be a rocket, and fuel does not have to run out. It just means that the potential energy to space is offset by initial velocity. It matches our daily experience: if you want to coast up an incline, you have to get a running start ;)

The energy in velocity (kinetic energy) is 0.5 * m * v * v;
potential energy is m * g * h;

At the threshold of escape velocity, 2gh = v * v
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15676
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 am

WetEV wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:42 pm
goldbrick wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:16 pm
I think it says a lot about this concept that the original idea started as a very, very tall tower, inspired by the Eiffel tower. I don't completely understand how this would enable a 90+% decrease in the cost of putting things in space but since t's currently impossible with today's technology maybe no one does.
Most of the energy in a rocket is wasted. An elevator could be very efficient. Far less energy needed, and can be electrical rather than chemical.
Space elevator back in the news? Interesting. They figure out how to build one yet?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:15 am

I thought the space elevator required long strand carbon nanotubes to be commoditized.
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

danrjones
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:10 am

I would imagine that if you ignore the capital construction costs (huge would be an understatement) the cost of energy to climb and deploy your payload would be far less than 10% of today's launch costs. They price reduction could be more like 99.9%.

But last I read there are huge obstacles beyond just the carbon nanotubes required. There are geopolitical concerns, weather, terrorism, etc.

I imagine lightning storms around your carbon nanotube space elevator would be a concern.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

goldbrick
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:30 pm

I can see how the 'engines' required to lift the cargo would be smaller and more efficient but I don't see how a structure that long and thin could be made to be stable. Remember 'Galloping Gertie', the bridge? Now imagine one that is 50 miles long floating in space.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 17078
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:38 pm

The mass of bridges that exist now would be dwarfed by the mass of the tether and of the orbiting anchor. As a result, stability should be much greater. The Moon's gravity would be a concern, though.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

danrjones
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Mars Is a Hellhole

Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:34 pm

goldbrick wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:30 pm
I can see how the 'engines' required to lift the cargo would be smaller and more efficient but I don't see how a structure that long and thin could be made to be stable. Remember 'Galloping Gertie', the bridge? Now imagine one that is 50 miles long floating in space.
It would be like you swinging a string with a rock tied to the end, that rock pulls on the string and keeps it taught. Now imagine a small ant walking that string up and down. That ant would not impact the stability of the system, as the rock has a lot of force pulling outward on the system keeping the string tight.

The Physics are fine, the materials science and money is another matter.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

Return to “Off-Topic”