Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:16 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:41 am
SageBrush wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:20 am
Titanium48 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:42 pm
No, just saying that higher peak electrical loads could make the lowest total energy transfer solution more difficult to implement
.
You are still not understanding. The peak load of a heat pump is about the same for heating and cooling.

But how often is it 50+ degrees hotter than room temperature outside...?
Exactly.
It's going to draw the same amount of power as when its air conditioning in the summer, but on a very cold night its probably going to run just about all night barely stopping. Using way more kwh compared to summer time air conditioning.
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Titanium48
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:15 am

Yes. In a cold climate, sizing for winter heating load will result in a much larger system than sizing for summer air conditioning load. Many houses in cold climates don't even have air conditioning. I have four 5000 BTU/hr window units that draw 500 W each, and that is plenty to keep my 1500 ft^2 comfortably cool on the hottest days. Even if they could be switched into heating mode at the same COP, there is no way they could keep up in winter.
While it is the draw while operating that is important for sizing building wiring, it is the total load on a neighborhood circuit, substation or transmission line that is important to the power utility. High peak draw in individual buildings will still average out to a modest load if the duty cycles are short, but not if all of those compressors are on almost all the time.

SageBrush
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:29 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:41 am

But how often is it 50+ degrees hotter than room temperature outside...?
.
It does not change the peak load.
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Titanium48
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:40 pm

^ On a building level, no, but at the utility level it there is a huge difference between 1000 or 10,000 or 100,000 customers running 5-10 kW compressors 10% of the time on a hot day and those same customers running those compressors 70% of the time on a cold evening.

SageBrush
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:47 pm

Titanium48 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:40 pm
^ On a building level, no, but at the utility level it there is a huge difference between 1000 or 10,000 or 100,000 customers running 5-10 kW compressors 10% of the time on a hot day and those same customers running those compressors 70% of the time on a cold evening.
There is none to little difference. The utility plans its investments in infrastructure by theoretical peak load. Peak AC cooling load is the same as peak heat pump heating load.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
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Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:04 am

One tiny problem with peak load shifting to night.
There is no solar and usually not as much wind.
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Titanium48
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:47 pm
There is none to little difference. The utility plans its investments in infrastructure by theoretical peak load. Peak AC cooling load is the same as peak heat pump heating load.
No they don't. If everyone maxed out the service to their house or business at the same time they would overload the distribution system and bring it down. Even half that much demand would be greater than the generation and transmission capacity. The all time record demand in my province is just under 12 GW, for a population of 4 million. Maximum generation capacity if every powerplant is online is 16 GW. A million houses pulling 100 A each would be 24 GW before even counting any industrial or commercial demands. The system is definitely not designed to support the theoretical maximum peak load, it is designed to support the expected average demand (which is about 10 GW here) with a reasonable margin. Switching the largest consumers of energy from gas to electricity will increase the average demand and will require upgrades to the electrical system.

Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:05 pm

In January 2011 here it was -16F and the power grid was almost brought down by little plug in space heaters at about 0500L.
The local power grid had been in brown out conditions since around 0200L.
The natural gas pressure got so low it shut down the boilers where I work.
So it's safe to say with out natural gas the power grid would have failed, people may have froze to death and at the very least a lot more pipes would have burst causing millions of dollars in home damages. Even with the heat on the next day every hardware store in town was sold out of pipe.
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iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:21 pm

Proof of city scale concept starts in less than two months in near coastal Northern California cities with these building codes going into effect 1/1/2020.

Technology continues to improve, renewables and distributed battery storage continue to become more affordable, and this will spread throughout the country starting with the most mild climates and environmentally conscious locations first.

10+ years from now new technologies, cost and efficiency gains, grid/transformer upgrades, new buildings constructed with ground source heat pumps, and ever growing urgency will more easily allow us to surmount challenges currently seen as too difficult for colder climates.
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