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Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:15 pm
by LTLFTcomposite
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/with-ne ... ngine.html

30% efficiency improvement, less demand for gas, lower gas prices, repeat viscous cycle.

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:36 pm
by LeftieBiker
as much as 30 percent fuel efficiency over its Skyactiv-G engine

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:04 pm
by abasile
Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:30 am
by RegGuheert
ICEVs still cannot be refueled at home using fuel entirely produced at home. Even "homemade" biofuel requires a source of oil.

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:30 am
by GetOffYourGas
Hamper? Maybe. Stop? No way.

EV's offer far more than lower operating cost. In fact, they are simply better for everything short of a long trip. I would argue that overall, they are better than ICEVs.

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:09 am
by SageBrush
abasile wrote:Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
That is the car, not the motor per se.

If you take an ICE car and give it a Cd of 0.24 it will also have impressive MPG. E.g., the Prius Prime

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:18 am
by SageBrush
LeftieBiker wrote:
as much as 30 percent fuel efficiency over its Skyactiv-G engine
Exactly. When talking about ICE, one must be careful to distinguish peak efficiency, average efficiency, or efficiency at an arbitrary power band. Mazda picked an arbitrary power band that showcases the tech advance but that says very, very little about overall efficiency improvement.

About the best an ICE can ever hope to theoretically reach is current Toyota hybrid levels of about 55 mpg over a complete drive cycle. Getting there without a supplemental battery to flatten out the power curve and not be under-powered would be quite a feat* but that is the limit. At current fuel prices a car like that costs about 4 cents a mile. My LEAF, fueled by my home PV, costs 0.5 cents a mile.

Regarding the new Mazda engine, it sounds like they are trying to get rid of the air throttle and its attendant 'partial power' losses every petrol ICE so far developed suffers from. In effect, they are 'diesel-izing' the engine. That is fine, but the problem to date has been huge increases in Nox and particulates ... and then having to spend tech and money on emission control. The VW diesel story informs the Mazda story: look for the emissions profile and emissions controls it requires. If it is anything comparable to diesel, it will fail.

*It has been talked about. Presumably a turbo, along with variable displacement that does away with the throttle plate, could get there.

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:51 am
by abasile
SageBrush wrote:
abasile wrote:Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
That is the car, not the motor per se.

If you take an ICE car and give it a Cd of 0.24 it will also have impressive MPG. E.g., the Prius Prime
You are certainly correct that the vehicles I mentioned are more aerodynamic than the 2011-2017 LEAF. I believe the Ioniq also has a Cd of 0.24.

However, we've also seen significant efficiency improvements apart from aerodynamics. It appears that the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course. Still, there remains room for improvement.

The bottom line is that Mazda's leadership is wrong to suggest that it's enough for now to improve the ICE. Okay, so with a 30% improvement in fuel efficiency across the board, we'll only be warming the planet 70% as quickly. That certainly helps, and the world doesn't yet have the battery production capacity for every new car to be an EV, but legacy companies like Mazda have been dragging their feet on EVs, pure and simple.

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:45 pm
by Oils4AsphaultOnly
GetOffYourGas wrote:Hamper? Maybe. Stop? No way.

EV's offer far more than lower operating cost. In fact, they are simply better for everything short of a long trip. I would argue that overall, they are better than ICEVs.
Although SageBush has the technical details right about Mazda's claims, the above is why EV adoption will not be hampered (other than price of the vehicle).

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:12 pm
by WetEV
LTLFTcomposite wrote:repeat viscous cycle.
Dictionary wrote: adjective: viscous

having a thick, sticky consistency between solid and liquid; having a high viscosity.
"viscous lava""
Somehow I doubt if that is what you mean.