Oilpan4
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
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Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:27 am

iPlug wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:46 am
Out of curiosity, have you calculated how many therms or kWh or other units of energy in coal you use annually with your forced air coal furnace?
My coal furnacewas built in 2014, I bought it in 2018 on clearance. I didn't pay anywhere near $4,000. With sales tax it was nearly $800.
Originally with sales tax, it would have been just about $4,000.

I didn't buy the coal in new mexico it's very hard to get unless you are over by Arizona or the 4 corner area. I collected over the course of several road trips returning home
through central texas.

I use some where around 1.5 mm btu of coal last year.
Around 90% of what goes into the coal furnace is construction waste lumber, pallet pieces. Most importantly it's free, but lots of nails.
Most of the remaining 10% is plain firewood from chopped up trees, then almost all of those were cut down by the electric coop.
The anthracite coal I use burns far cleaner than any of the wood I burn.
I will probably use the kill-a-watt meter to track power use by the furnace. It knocks at least a mega watt hour or 2 off the monthy power bill running the coal furnace compared to the heat pump with electric heat enabled.
The coal furnace blowers use almost no power compared to the heat pump.
It will have definitely paid for its self in its 2nd year of operation, if it gets cold this year like it did last year, in the 2nd week in October it will pay for its self before the end of this year.
This winter I am going to make the coal furnace closed loop. It will greatly boost efficiency. Less fire wood to collect, less coal to buy. I bought a metric ton of coal and that should last around 10 years, baring no unusual events like another week of -10F nights.

I got the coal furnace because it was almost the same price as the more lightly constructed equivalent model of wood furnace. Plus I can burn the hottest and fastest burning types of coal if I want. I have heard they can burn tires too.
Plus just saying the words "coal furnace" sets people off.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

SageBrush
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:44 am

Here is retail coal in Texas
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... m-nut-coal

899 cents for ~ 18 Kg
If it is 7 kWh per Kg then
899 cents / (18*7) = 7.13 cents a kWh, taxes not yet included

Compare that to as low as 0.5 cents a kWh in a PV/Heat-pump arrangement.

Burning coal amounts to paying through the nose to pollute. Something only an Oil-y would do
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
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Oilpan4
Posts: 1819
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:55 am

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:44 am
Here is retail coal in Texas
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... m-nut-coal

899 cents for ~ 18 Kg
If it is 7 kWh per Kg then
899 cents / (18*7) = 7.13 cents a kWh, taxes not yet included

Compare that to as low as 0.5 cents a kWh in a PV/Heat-pump arrangement.

Burning coal amounts to paying through the nose to pollute. Something only an Oil-y would do
Did you read the part where nearly 100% of what goes in the coal furnace is waste lumber and nuance trees?
Or read the part where I said a "a metric ton of coal should last around 10 years"?
Do you even know how a heat pump works in cold weather?
It appears the answer would be no to all.
It also appears you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

When it gets below freezing most heat pumps start using some electric resistance heating to keep the oil for the compressor warm. Even the super efficient ones are all using at least some resistance heating by +20F.
At freezing mine uses a compressor heater and will briefly cycle the resistance heaters on and off to boost the discharge temperature.
At +5F mine gives up trying to be a heat pump is using backup resistance heating only.
Resistance heating is 9 cents per kwh.
So how's that cheaper than burning coal for around 7 cents a kwh of heat?
Thats assuming I was burning coal.

Electricity here is about 9 cents per kwh on my bill on average.
The the coal furnace peaks at 180,000btu per, the blowers run a fixed 450 watts. The way I like to run it burning wood makes some where around 50,000 btu per hour.
50,000 btu per hour to over 100,000 btu per hour.
So paying less than 5 cents for electricity to get 50 to 100kwh btu of heat.
That's 15 to 30 kwh of wood heat heat per half kwh of electrical input.
I do have a heat pump, I use it some on mild winter days, but would rater keep it off.

I burn coal on unusually cold nights because it burns for a long time, easily through the night.
The coal furnace is plugged into a slightly used but free UPS, so when the power goes out the coal furnace keeps going.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

SageBrush
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:16 am

^^
I commented on the cost of burning coal.
Burning free "waste" wood is obviously no cost to you out of pocket immediately, although you WILL pay along with everybody else for the pollution and AGW. "Waste" wood should be recycled into the ground. You may not have noticed that you live in a shithole because those before you burned down the trees and turned the land into desert. It is time for you to catch a clue that burning bio-matter is REALLY, REALLY stupid.

It is you who do not understand how to use a heat pump efficiently and cheaply. The idea is to heat when the ambient air temperature is highest, and to keep the warmed up air in the home with a decent house envelope and HX for air quality.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

iPlug
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:26 pm

Oilpan4, your listed zipcode shows as Cannon AFB.
January shows as the coldest month there, with average low of 26ºF according to Mr. Google.

Our coldest temps are also in January. Here in Rocklin, CA the low average for that month is only 38ºF, although we get a few winter days with a few hours in the pre-sunrise time of 25-30ºF.

Last winter was the first cold season for our new central air ducted heat pump. We have a 2,550 ft^2 house and it used a tad over 1,800 kWh that season.

Although we often turned the thermostat down to ~68ºF when we went to bed, we would often bring the temps back to ~70-72ºF around sunrise when getting up. We left the heat pump in heat pump only mode, but the system still automatically ran resistive heating a few times for a total of 6 kWh that season while the coolant circuit briefly ran backwards to de-ice the coils on the coldest pre-dawn mornings.
'19 Model 3 SR+, '19 Leaf SV, '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr prod.), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source HP, 3.70 UEF HPWH, Induction Cooktop, Variable Speed Pool Pump, Battery powered yard tools

LeftieBiker
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:40 pm

I, with 2 assistants and great, often frustrating effort, installed the Mr Cool DIY mini split in my bedroom only. I have always had trouble with my room being too hot in Summer, and too cold when the wind is from any direction other than West or due North in Winter. I can now chill my room 5F or more in 15 minutes or less, but the thermostatic controls are crap, and I still have unpredictable temp swings - this time unrelated to wind direction, at least in Summer. Part of the problem is with locating the main temp sensor in the unit, near ceiling level. I can choose to use the remote to sense the temp for a few hours, but that has a crappy sensor. I'm disappointed. It is, however, very quiet, and seems to use only modest amounts of power.
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iPlug
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:57 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:40 pm
...the thermostatic controls are crap, and I still have unpredictable temp swings - this time unrelated to wind direction, at least in Summer. Part of the problem is with locating the main temp sensor in the unit, near ceiling level...
Sorry to hear. Is it more than that the ceiling temps read higher than what occupant level temperature is, or main sensor just not accurate, or unit unable to respond to sensor data with a reasonable temperature band, or something else?
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:33 pm

iPlug wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:57 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:40 pm
...the thermostatic controls are crap, and I still have unpredictable temp swings - this time unrelated to wind direction, at least in Summer. Part of the problem is with locating the main temp sensor in the unit, near ceiling level...

Sorry to hear. Is it more than that the ceiling temps read higher than what occupant level temperature is, or main sensor just not accurate, or unit unable to respond to sensor data with a reasonable temperature band, or something else?

There are two issues, I think. The first is the location of the main sensor, that high up at 7'. The air temp up there drops over time as the unit runs, but more than it drops in the lower part of the room. The sensor in the remote reads 2F high for a few hours, then gets fairly accurate, but is also subject to breezes. I run the fan on Low usually to combat this, but I have yet to maintain a set temp for more than a very few hours. I go to bed cold and usually wake up either freezing or sweating. I may look into wiring a standard wall thermostat to the damned thing, overriding the built in sensor. I'm hoping it does better with heat mode, but I don't see why it should.
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Marktm
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:47 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:33 pm


There are two issues, I think. The first is the location of the main sensor, that high up at 7'. The air temp up there drops over time as the unit runs, but more than it drops in the lower part of the room. The sensor in the remote reads 2F high for a few hours, then gets fairly accurate, but is also subject to breezes. I run the fan on Low usually to combat this, but I have yet to maintain a set temp for more than a very few hours. I go to bed cold and usually wake up either freezing or sweating. I may look into wiring a standard wall thermostat to the damned thing, overriding the built in sensor. I'm hoping it does better with heat mode, but I don't see why it should.
I wonder if a small ceiling fan set on low and updraft would solve your issues? I've done that with a crappy window unit in a small bedroom and it made quite a difference - stable temps throughout the room with a little, comfortable air circulation. Don't know what the watt draw is, but cannot be much.
To add - the room has vaulted ceilings that trapped heat coming thru from the roof - probably added to the issue when the A/C fan came on and pushed the hot air around - my assumption :geek:
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iPlug
Posts: 463
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Re: Share Your Home Electrification/Efficiency Improvements

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:07 pm

+1
Nice suggestion
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