WetEV
Posts: 3214
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:Your crap article states 94k miles for a Tesla battery until end of life. Go ahead -- justify that with references.
Sure. This car:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/


:lol: :lol:
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 955
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:30 pm

Last time I checked lithium batteries were economiclly recycled for their steel casing, copper and/or aluminum conductors, the only battery materials really being recycled were the cobalt and nickel.
The left over lithium is not normally recycled in the United States or Europe as far as I can tell, it's safe and non toxic enough to go to a land fill.
Cobalt mining is so environmentally horrible and inhumane we are better off recycling it. If you don't know much about cobalt mining, my recommendation is to keep it that way.

China recycles lithium from batteries with essentially free labor and effectively 0 environmental regulation or regard. I'm sure that's great for the people and environment.
So if you want to freight ship your battery to China to get recycled be my guest.
As best I can tell the recycled or recovered lithium in china gets used in ceramics, glass or in cheap batteries where quality and reliably aren't key factors. Not to make new electric car batteries.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

cwerdna
Posts: 9812
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:58 pm

Oilpan4 wrote: Right now the second use for a battery pack is put it in another car if the original car gets crashed or put it on ebay.
Otherwise it's pure speculation.
Wasn't there some company that was going to buy up weak EV packs and use them for grid storage and how's that going?
Here are a few examples w/pointers to others:

https://www.energy.ca.gov/research/ener ... batteries/
https://insideevs.com/news/337850/xstor ... ome-power/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/24/ni ... nitiative/
https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/nissan-l ... jff-arena/
https://electrek.co/2018/05/21/bmw-i3-b ... e-project/
https://electrek.co/2017/06/05/renault- ... ompetitor/
https://insideevs.com/news/343267/audi- ... -vehicles/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150302103 ... -life.html
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/new ... ttery.html

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:28 am

Oilpan4 wrote:Last time I checked
Check again

---
I'm still waiting for you to justify the assumption of 94k miles per Tesla battery. Do you even read the drivel you post here ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:41 am

Oilpan4 wrote:Oh yeah like mining battery material doesn't generate PM or any other wastes.
Of course it does. Come back when you have well researched amounts, along with the embedded and full lifecycle pollution of a diesel car.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 955
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:37 pm

This isn't just tesla it's all electric vehicles.
For example has already had its battery replaced.
And can pretty much guarantee I will swap it again well before 94,000, as I am currently at 65,000.

Those battery second life articles appear to mostly show the state of "reused batteries" mostly in europe and appear to be using new batteries mostly. One is about a paragraph long and contains no useful information.
Doesn't look like any one is actively buying used up packs and making them part of some grid storage facility unless it's a one off pilot project or science experiment.
Solar and battery powered street lights are stupid. Better off grid tieing the panels and putting the whole battery in a grid storage setup.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

Stoaty
Posts: 4488
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:16 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:This isn't just tesla it's all electric vehicles.
For example has already had its battery replaced.
And can pretty much guarantee I will swap it again well before 94,000, as I am currently at 65,000.
That is the problem with the Leaf. Mine lost about 30% in 6 years. However, my 2013 Tesla Model S just hit 90,000 miles (25,000 miles put on by me). It is on the original battery (I checked before purchase what work had been done under warranty) and has 250 mile rated range (95% of its original EPA rated mileage). Haven't seen any detectable change in the two years I have owned it. I charge to 50% during the week to protect the battery as 125 miles is 3 times what I need on a work day and still leaves me a huge cushion should I need it. The Teslas that may need battery replacement are generally those with a lot of supercharger use and charged to full capacity, both of which are not so good for the battery.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:23 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:This isn't just tesla it's all electric vehicles.
Have you paid any attention to Tesla marketshare in the US for EVs ?

More to the point though, batteries and EVs share a common problem (or opportunity, depending on your POV): they can be a solution if implemented wisely, or an indirect fossil use if used unwisely. An EV can be run off PV, or it can be run off coal. A battery can be recycled with zero pollution or carbon emissions, or be dumped into a waste site. The choice is ours. This is ALL about Tesla because they are paving the way for sustainable EV production. Your propaganda OP is the equivalent of trashing EVs because they can be run off coal while ignoring the all important fact that they can run off clean or clean(er) energy.

Diesel ? Bio-diesel had its day but has failed. And fossil derived diesel is filthy from start to finish.

Do you now understand why your article is garbage, even before we consider the flawed methodology and BS source data, e.g. 94k miles useful Tesla battery life and incomplete diesel lifecycle analysis ?

---
I do not label posts as garbage if I disagree with them; I disagree with garbage posts.

You:
post nonsensical garbage about nuclear;
are an AGW denialist;
spout trumper BS;
post that diesel is cleaner than EVs.

You might some day post something that is not garbage ...
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:17 am

This
https://innovationorigins.com/no-diesel ... -electric/

is a full rebuttal of the OP propaganda.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 955
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:04 am

Electric vehicles and renewables are dependent on fossil fuel power for every stage of their production too. With out the nuclear and fossil fuel back bone of the power grid no one would be charging their car.

Bio diesel hasn't failed I regularly fill up my diesel cans with B20 for my tractor. It's still out there. The only way it fails is economically produced bio diesel is not suitable for use in cold climates during the winter.

There is no way a batter can be recycled with 0 CO2 or pollution. That's a ridiculous fantasy.
A used up lithium battery will likely have to be shipped at least hundreds if not a thousand miles or more on average to the recycling place.
Then there is the chemical seperation of the battery materials. There is a reason it's only being done on a large scale where there no environmental regulations. They can dump the spent/left over chemicals in a river until it kills or sickens a few thousand people down stream. They're non toxic enough so they can probably dump truck loads of chemicals in this way with out messing up people down stream very much.
All the chemicals used to break down and recycle the lithium battery materials will come from the petrochemical industry.
Last edited by Oilpan4 on Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

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