Lothsahn
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:04 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:21 pm
But can what they collect for the offset actually buy enough solar production to displace the massive carbon emissions from the jet travel? I'd like to see the math on that.

Looks like the power companies are switching to renewable-gas turbine hybrid plants anyway just on economics. Didn't we hear a while back that transportation has surpassed electricity generation in carbon emissions?

I'd bet on the pocket-lining outcome, certainly skimming a large percentage. Never one to believe in indulgences anyway.
That's why you need good auditing and oversight. Not clear that it's present here, but I do believe that properly taxing carbon emissions and using the revenue to subsidize carbon reduction is the best way to minimize the impact of climate change quickly.

Granted, power companies are switching to lower carbon emissions fuels, but the question is "over what timeframe?" If you want to accelerate the switch (and we do), you have to subsidize it.

A quick google search shows that NY to London is 1301 pounds of CO2.
https://travelnav.com/emissions-from-lo ... ew-york-ny

Utility solar is $40-$46/MWh
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 277637001/

Coal produces ~2000 pounds of CO2 per MWh (2lbs per kWh).
https://carbonpositivelife.com/co2-per- ... ectricity/

The round trip is 2602 pounds of CO2, or 1.3 MWh equivalent of solar production ($52).

That's a dramatic overestimate of what a CO2 offset would cost. Why? Because it assumes the electricity from coal is free (hint: it's not). For an offset, all you really need is to pay someone to switch from coal to solar. Because coal and the maintenance of the coal power plant costs money, you'll actually have to pay them less than the full cost to switch to solar.

In short: It wouldn't cost THAT much money to actually make significant improvements. We've ignored the problem for so long that there are tons of areas where we can optimize CO2 production. If a significant tax was levied on carbon production, you'd see the global economy switch quite quickly.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Seems like what's really called for is converting the power generation AND foregoing the air travel.

With 4k TV there's no need to vacation in Paris, just show me a nice documentary and I can see what it's like same as being there. I don't have to worry about lost luggage and exchange rates.
LTL
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GRA
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:00 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:29 pm
Seems like what's really called for is converting the power generation AND foregoing the air travel.

With 4k TV there's no need to vacation in Paris, just show me a nice documentary and I can see what it's like same as being there. I don't have to worry about lost luggage and exchange rates.
Or sail both ways, for people who've got the time:
Greta Thunberg is sailing back across the Atlantic. Here's what she accomplished while in the US
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 178195002/


Of course, that's a very limited population compared to those who can spare a week or so.
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:07 pm

I have flown first class a few times, it is nice.
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2k1Toaster
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:14 am

As mentioned, the bad emissions per passenger per miles flown, flying is better than driving. And first class vs. economy is silly. It comes down to "per passenger". An all business class aircraft (like some that exist on the LHR to JFK and JFK to LAX routes) takes that into consideration based on the limited passengers it can take.

This now 7yr+ old article states:
According to recently published figures from the FAA, in 2012 the energy intensity gap was 3,193 BTU/passenger mile for driving, compared to 2,654 BTU/passenger mile for flying. Energy intensity for airplanes is “now significantly lower than automobiles.”
In the 7 years since it hasn't gone down linearly because most of the easier aircraft gains have been got. But the NEO aircraft and the MAXs (whoops...) do help. As do the GPS based navigation routes versus ground-radar based routes being experimented with, etc.

Sometimes you just got to fly. Other times, it just makes more sense to fly or is more comfortable/easy to do so. One week this year I did 30k miles circumnavigating the globe in 8 locations. 7 days, 8 areas, 30k miles. Can't do that by boat or car.

Looks like this year so far I've gone about 300k miles on one airline and its partners and 100k miles on another. So a relatively average year for me.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:52 am

Mr. 2k1toaster is hardly alone in racking up those sorts of huge air miles per year. Presumably at that point you don't have an EV for environmental concerns.

Honestly I don't know why Greenpeace isn't picketing at the airports.
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wwhitney
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:02 am

2k1Toaster wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:14 am
And first class vs. economy is silly. It comes down to "per passenger".
Not really. I would say that it comes down to modeling the CO2 emissions of the flight as a fixed overhead plus a function of payload mass. [Heavier flights use more fuel.] Your mass-based contribution is independent of what class you are flying in.

But the fixed overhead should be divided according to space taken up on the plane. E.g. if a plane could be configured as 200 economy seats, but is instead configured as 20 first class and 160 economy seats, then each economy seat gets 1/200 of the overhead, and each first class seat gets 1/100 of the overhead, or twice as much.

As I reckon the payload of an airplane is well under half of its takeoff weight, I expect the overhead contribution to be bigger than the payload mass contribution.

Cheers, Wayne

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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:37 am

Great explanation Wayne. I have to think the reason airlines charge so much more for business class and 1st class seats than economy is more about the flight costs (much of which is fuel) rather than the extra 2 glasses of wine you get or the nice silverware.

GRA
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:10 pm

2k1Toaster wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:14 am
As mentioned, the bad emissions per passenger per miles flown, flying is better than driving.
Depends. It's better than driving solo in a conventional ICE, but 2 per car is about the same and any occupancy above that the car comes out ahead. H/PH/B/FC - EVs would all reduce the a/c's advantage, and then there's how the electricity is made, and yada yada.

2k1Toaster wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:14 am
And first class vs. economy is silly. It comes down to "per passenger". An all business class aircraft (like some that exist on the LHR to JFK and JFK to LAX routes) takes that into consideration based on the limited passengers it can take.
Which is the point being made - first class pax take up more space per pax, thus the a/c can hold fewer people and the energy cost per pax goes up (although it drops some due to the lower weight of pax and fuel AOTBE). Same goes for business class to a lesser extent. [Edit] Oops, I see Mr. Whitney beat me to it, and did a better job of clearly explaining it than I did.

See the comparison chart here for general numbers comparing different modes of travel: https://www.withouthotair.com/c20/page_128.shtml
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Nubo
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Re: GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of

Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:30 pm

goldbrick wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:36 am
The plane uses X gallons of fuel for the trip. X can be divided between relatively few 1st class passengers or many more passengers in economy. At the extreme, you have a private jet. Surely the impact from flying a plane with one passenger is higher than a fully loaded plane, at least on a per-passenger basis.
And just as surely, the plane is going to take off whether I'm in economy or first-class.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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