GRA
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:20 pm

Wind turbines take far more land, concrete and steel than conventional or nuclear thermal plants of the same power (All RE has far lower energy and power densities than fossil/nuclear), and both concrete and steel production are heavily dependent on fossil fuels, which is why it's so critical to develop cleaner methods for producing both that can be massively scaled up. At the moment, we're just starting to develop the necessary technologies.

David Mackay's "Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air" has some ballpark numbers:
To create 48 kWh per day of offshore wind per person in the UK would require 60 million tons of concrete and steel – one ton per person. Annual
world steel production is about 1200 million tons, which is 0.2 tons per
person in the world. During the second world war, American shipyards
built 2751 Liberty ships, each containing 7000 tons of steel – that’s a total
of 19 million tons of steel, or 0.1 tons per American. So the building of 60
million tons of wind turbines is not off the scale of achievability; but don’t
kid yourself into thinking that it’s easy. Making this many windmills is as
big a feat as building the Liberty ships.

For comparison, to make 48 kWh per day of nuclear power per person
in the UK would require 8 million tons of steel and 0.14 million tons of
concrete. We can also compare the 60 million tons of offshore wind hardware
that we’re trying to imagine with the existing fossil-fuel hardware
already sitting in and around the North Sea (figure 10.4). In 1997, 200
installations and 7000 km of pipelines in the UK waters of the North Sea
contained 8 million tons of steel and concrete. The newly built Langeled
gas pipeline from Norway to Britain, which will convey gas with a power
of 25 GW (10 kWh/d/p), used another 1 million tons of steel and 1 million
tons of concrete (figure 10.5).
https://www.withouthotair.com/c10/page_62.shtml

Elsewhere in the book he shows the embodied energy and CO2 costs of various construction materials.

I've read similar comparisons of relative amounts of steel and concrete required for various types of renewable electricity generators vs. fossil and nuclear plants by Vaclav Smil (one or more of his books: "Still the Iron Age: Iron and Steel in the Modern World"; "Power Density: A Key to Understanding Energy Sources and Uses"; and "Energy Transitions: Global and National Perspectives, 2nd Edition" has the details) and others, and they all reach the same conclusions. IIRR Smil does cradle to grave analyses.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Oilpan4
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:31 am

Building wind turbines is hard work and not for the faint of heart. Maintaining them is no easy task either.
Fuel burning plants are easy by comparison.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:46 am

Digging coal and transporting it all over the world is relatively easy?
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:27 am

downeykp wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:46 am
Digging coal and transporting it all over the world is relatively easy?
We tend to 'look passed' existing massive infrastructure and think only about how hard it can be to build it from scratch.
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GRA
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:55 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:27 am

We tend to 'look passed' existing massive infrastructure and think only about how hard it can be to build it from scratch.
Smil's "Energy Transitions" (earlier post) shows historical time-frames, total primary energy replaced and costs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:21 am

Domestic terrorists running loose with chainsaws trying to cut down power lines.
Then I get an add for stihl chain saws on youtube.
https://youtu.be/DP_dyBfdnz8
Definitely looks like the first time that person ever used a chainsaw.
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smkettner
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:38 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:31 am
Building wind turbines is hard work and not for the faint of heart. Maintaining them is no easy task either.
Fuel burning plants are easy by comparison.
Ultimately it is the cost of the electricity produced if you include all costs of construction, fueling and maintenance. And I believe coal is a loser and NG is falling behind. Now add in air pollution and there is no contest.
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Oilpan4
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:40 am

Coal should only be used to make steel, concrete and electric car batteries.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

Oilpan4
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:20 pm

According to Rasmussen 41% of likely voters believe that climate change is making fires worse. 54% believe it's human and other causes making them fires worse.
Queen Nancy would say "we have the votes and that's all that matters".
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

WetEV
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Re: Costs of Climate Change Denial Start to Roll In

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:30 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:20 pm
According to Rasmussen 41% of likely voters believe that climate change is making fires worse. 54% believe it's human and other causes making them fires worse.
Queen Nancy would say "we have the votes and that's all that matters".
Truth isn't decided by voting. Nor by the barrel of a gun. Nor by the most annoying trolling.
Experts broadly agree now that decades of fire suppression actually made the risk of forest fires worse. This policy increased fuel loads in the nation’s forests that under different circumstances would have been thinned by flames.
While the entire world has warmed as a result of increased carbon emissions, the Pacific Coast has seen some of the most dramatic temperature increases. The region has warmed 2 degrees F since 1900, and the past several summers in the region have been some of the hottest on record.
A third factor is that development has expanded into once-wild areas, putting more people and property in harm’s way.
Addressing just part of this problem will produce incomplete solutions. Rather, I believe a multipronged strategy is what’s needed. One element is improving forest management to make these lands less primed to burn. The other is reducing carbon emissions and reining in global temperatures – the only way to moderate climate conditions that make fires larger and more likely.
https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247
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