LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13300
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:09 pm

I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.

Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?

And that, in short, is how we got here, at the Beginning of the End.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

danrjones
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:23 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:09 pm
I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.

Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?

And that, in short, is how we got here, at the Beginning of the End.
Yeah maybe but one thing I learned as an engineer is that you can't just have technically feasible solutions but solutions that are logstically feasible, as well as affordable.

Europeans would love to get off gas simply because it would free up political options in dealing with Russia. But that gas is the only affordable means that keeps them from freezing.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5407
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:59 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:18 pm
Or you can just use fire. I know, it's almost too simple. If Ron Popeil was around I'm sure he could invent a pepper roaster for you.

Actually I have one of his dehydrators somewhere, it burned stuff too. Just slowly.
Set it and forget it!

Electric stovetop, but if I wanted to roast a whole unsliced pepper for some reason I suppose I could use our propane camp stove. Or maybe head outside with a big fresnel lens :mrgreen:

Usually I'm just looking to add to soups or stews or make sauce and the cast iron does a good job without having to heat up the oven. Cast Iron works well in general to mitigate the annoyances of resistance stovetops. helps spread the heat and buffers against the on/off cycling.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 am

My wife will not allow builder grade or entry level and she likes gas.
I take gas over electric just on account of it working when there is a power outage.
danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:05 pm
And what does all that electricity cost?

Again my summer bill for gas is $10!
That's for cooking, drying clothes and hot water.

I know for a fact people in my area can hit $300 to $400 a month electric bills for cooling this time of year.

Sure, I can offset all the electricity with more solar. Solar installers here are charging about $3 watt. So to add another 6 KW DC is another 18 grand. Not including all the other stuff (panel, dryer, range, water heater, heat pump)

This falls under the cut your foot off to treat a hang nail. Not happening.


I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.

Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?
Nothing wrong with natural gas. We got no shortage of people on here that use it for home heating.
Unless you are off grid everyone uses natural gas power to charge their cars.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:56 am

danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:23 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:09 pm
I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.

Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?

And that, in short, is how we got here, at the Beginning of the End.
Yeah maybe but one thing I learned as an engineer is that you can't just have technically feasible solutions but solutions that are logstically feasible, as well as affordable.

Europeans would love to get off gas simply because it would free up political options in dealing with Russia. But that gas is the only affordable means that keeps them from freezing.
If you are looking for critical thinking, logical discussion and reasonable compromise you came to the wrong place.
Actually I'm surprised our resident natural gas using troll hasn't chimed in and called you stupid for trying to be reasonable and accused you of being a environment hating repuke, or something juvenile such as that.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

danrjones
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:34 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:56 am
danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:23 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:09 pm



And that, in short, is how we got here, at the Beginning of the End.
Yeah maybe but one thing I learned as an engineer is that you can't just have technically feasible solutions but solutions that are logstically feasible, as well as affordable.

Europeans would love to get off gas simply because it would free up political options in dealing with Russia. But that gas is the only affordable means that keeps them from freezing.
If you are looking for critical thinking, logical discussion and reasonable compromise you came to the wrong place.
Actually I'm surprised our resident natural gas using troll hasn't chimed in and called you stupid for trying to be reasonable and accused you of being a environment hating repuke, or something juvenile such as that.
LOL

I'm in neither party, and refuse to join. I understand the intent, but natural gas is fairly clean and money does matter. There are just far bigger issues to expend political capital on than trying to get everyone off natural gas, which would simply cause push-back by the masses and even less would get done.


The point I was making is that solutions are great, but people on the left (or right) must understand that to be practical, people have to be able to afford them. While I actually COULD afford to spend 30-40k to overhaul my house and add more solar, I think the reactions from my wife would go like this:

"You want to spend 40k of our savings / retirement to save $10 a month in gas? You say it will save the world? You are an idiot. I want a divorce."
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 897
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:13 am

I don't have gas just because out on the coop it's $25 a month and my house was never set up for natural gas.

To make that $25 a month gas surcharge worth it I would really need to convert over to gas heat to make it worth the install. Then gas water heater, range and gas dryer to get some use out of that $25 per month that will make up about the vast majority the summer time gas bill.

Heat pump dryers are stupid. They are stupid expensive starting at $800 and $900 for the cheapest 2, ridiculously slow, they get plugged up with dryer lint, the heat pump system is very expensive to repair, they are tiny, typically 4 cubic feet in capacity where standard gas and electric dryers are around double that and they don't appear to save enough electricity to make them worth all the trouble. The ones I looked at still required 240v power.
It looks like you have to be willing to periodically take it apart and blow it out with compressed air every so often, based on a YouTube video where a guy got a like new almost free heat pump dryer and got it going again after a good hard cleaning.

Heat pump water heaters are another one. When they break plumbers don't know how to work on heat pumps and most hvac guys don't know how to work or don't want to work on a hot water heater. I have an etech add on heat pump hot water heater and love it, helps air condition the house a little during the summer.
But I wouldn't buy a premade unit starting at $850.
When my little etech quits and I can't fix it I just close 2 valves, unhook the water, unplug it from its power supply, plug in the range cord attached to my hot water heater returning it to normal resistance heating operation and take the etech unit to my favorite local hvac shop.

Some one said "induction ranges aren't more expensive than gas" and that is total BS. On Lowe's when I search induction ranges the cheapest 2 are $999 and $1,040. If you don't like either of those to the 3rd cheapest is $2,000.
The oven in an induction range is no different than the oven in a standard electric range so no efficiency gains there.
With gas ranges I see 7 under $500.
Right now everything is on sale too so those numbers are subject to change.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

iPlug
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:58 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:13 am
...Some one said "induction ranges aren't more expensive than gas" and that is total BS. On Lowe's when I search induction ranges the cheapest 2 are $999 and $1,040. If you don't like either of those to the 3rd cheapest is $2,000.
The oven in an induction range is no different than the oven in a standard electric range so no efficiency gains there.
With gas ranges I see 7 under $500.
Right now everything is on sale too so those numbers are subject to change.
You continue to dispense purposefully false information and the fact that you did not bother to report that my references above refuted your lies shows your continued disservice to the new folks here who aren't yet wise to your childish games and agendas. One more time, go back and read again, "Recommend interested parties head over to homedepot.com and sort for induction cooktops by price if this was your impression."

Too many incessant false items from you to be worthy of anyones time, but let's just address this one further since you were not capable of going to the website above and reporting that it completely disproved your misinformation:

$297
https://www.homedepot.com/p/True-Induct ... /306165033

$370
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Empava-30-i ... /309421162

$590
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ancona-Chef ... /302454308

$809 (the one we bought and better than the nicest gas cooktop costing $1k+ more)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigidaire- ... /304289285

All can be ordered online as we did.


SageBrush would likely be described by most here for his perpetual grouchiness, but he is no fool and does have you pegged correctly. Maybe he would be a little less angry if you would cease spreading knowingly false information.

Please spare danrjones your intentional fiction. He at least shows some interest in learning here even if he does not have all the means to pick high hanging fruit.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

danrjones
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:08 pm

I don't want to get between you two, but those examples are cook-tops. I for one was talking about RANGES.
A range is usually defined as a freestanding unit that includes an oven.
I know I live in the sticks but our home depot, as of three days ago, had no cheap induction ranges that I saw.

I like gas for cooking. But YMMV.
Anyway, I'm not spending 40 grand to convert my house, that's for sure.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

iPlug
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:14 pm

Yes, these are cook-tops because that was what I was discussing and what I claimed and because Oilpan went off on a purposefully misleading and still inaccurate direction. Induction cooktops are unquestionably NOT more expensive than gas cooktops.

There is no problem talking about ranges as well, especially if that was what you would have to replace if you were thinking so. However, those too are not more expensive than gas equivalents, for example:

$898 (the induction elements here will outperform most gas cooktops)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigidaire- ... /302939756
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

Return to “Environmental Issues”