iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:35 pm

Still has not proven “I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.”

Changes the goal posts again and says "Since a cheap gas galley cook top runs $199 and a full free standing range starts under $500..." Cheap is not nice, it's junk with a junk warranty and junk specs.

Again lies about "free standing inductive ranges start at $1,000." when it was already shown it is $900.

“I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.” -he said
“I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.” - he said
now it's I can by a lousy (not nice) gas range cheaper than a decent induction range

There remains no gas cooktop that exceeds the specs of our induction cooktop at $800. Something approaching that costs much more, but then there is no gas range at any price that can match the specs.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

danrjones
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Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:01 pm

I think this thread for me has played its course. I've no interest in arguing over range specific pricing, as that was never my point. I already have gas so conversion costs would be real.

Yes, $3 watt. I just had 3 quotes from local installers here to add more solar. That's also how I got the 2k number to upgrade my panel. My conclusion was to eventually do it myself.

And I'm not disagreeing that it's an environmental issue. But unfunded mandates are not going to work. One size does not fit all. We also have much lower hanging fruit we could go after first, that you could get political and popular support to do.
YMMV

Thanks
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wwhitney
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Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:33 pm

As for gas versus electric cost, here's what I see in Berkeley:

I presently use gas for a tankless water heater, a gas dryer, and a gas range. My gas bill last month was about $11 for 7 therms. The heat value of 7 therms is about the heat value of 200 kWh, but for comparison, I will assume the electric appliances will be twice as efficient (e.g. heat pump water heater, induction range, etc). So I would need roughly 100 kWh to replace that gas consumption. If I could buy those kWh at $0.10/kWh, it would be break-even, but electricity is most expensive than that here.

PVWatts tells me that at my location and with an 8/12 roof, a 1 kW DC PV system will generate about 1,600 kWh per year. So a 750W DC system would generate enough energy over the year to offset the electric equivalent of my current gas usage. At $3/watt, that would cost be $2,250 (not reasonable as a standalone cost, but as an average cost for part of a larger PV system).

If that PV system lasts 25 years, and $2,250 were part of a 25 year mortgage financed at 4% annually, then the monthly payment would be $12/month. So that's within the margin of error compared to the $11/month for gas (given that the 7 therms usage is probably rounded to the nearest integer). The number would be a bit higher if I accounted for PV degradation over time (assuming the PVWatts number is a first year result, I've not looked at it closely enough to know).

Cheers, Wayne

iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:48 pm

@danrjones, apologies for the noise - the beating a dead horse range and cooktop specific pricing has not recently been directed at you.
wwhitney wrote: As for gas versus electric cost, here's what I see in Berkeley...If that PV system lasts 25 years, and $2,250 were part of a 25 year mortgage financed at 4% annually, then the monthly payment would be $12/month. So that's within the margin of error compared to the $11/month for gas (given that the 7 therms usage is probably rounded to the nearest integer). The number would be a bit higher if I accounted for PV degradation over time (assuming the PVWatts number is a first year result, I've not looked at it closely enough to know).
Appreciate a local's input and number crunching. Assuming as well costs saved with no NG plumbing install for new residential construction it looks even sweeter.

Do you know if your city has any incentives on heat pumps and such beyond what PG&E offers?
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

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Nubo
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:40 pm

danrjones wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:01 pm
And I'm not disagreeing that it's an environmental issue. But unfunded mandates are not going to work.
Relax, it's Berkeley. They pride themselves in being "the first city to require/ban (whatever). Doesn't mean it's coming soon to a theater near you.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:50 am

Agree, Berkeley has long been a “weird” place, so this should not come as a surprise to potential and current residents.

In the grand scheme of things this is essentially a pilot project.

They already have the right energy mix from PG&E (high mix of renewable/carbon free energy, no coal, and balance of energy comes from natural gas) and climate, both literal and political, to run this experiment. Grid batteries are coming online and in a few months all new homes in CA will have to build in solar PV for net zero for home electricity use.

We can all learn something useful from how things proceed and there’s no time to prepare for the future like right now.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

GRA
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:21 pm

iPlug wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:50 am
Agree, Berkeley has long been a “weird” place, so this should not come as a surprise to potential and current residents.
It's the People's Republic of Berzerkeley, thank you very much :lol: I spent a lot of time hanging out in Berkeley in my teens and twenties (before that lived right downtown during the Summer of Love), and got really tired of a city having its own foreign policy but an inability/disinterest in taking care of basic civil functions. They've been electing more conservative* people to the city council since then, and the city does run somewhat better, but it's always been an experimental place - I was first exposed to and got interested in passive solar design and energy efficiency when my mom and I visited the Integral Urban House sometime in the mid-70s, started by Sim van Der Ryn (among others): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Urban_House

Book detailing same (I read it years later):
The Integral Urban House: Self Reliant Living in the City
https://www.amazon.com/Integral-Urban-H ... 1897408161

Here's Van Der Ryn's bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim_Van_der_Ryn
iPlug wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:50 am
In the grand scheme of things this is essentially a pilot project.

They already have the right energy mix from PG&E (high mix of renewable/carbon free energy, no coal, and balance of energy comes from natural gas) and climate, both literal and political, to run this experiment. Grid batteries are coming online and in a few months all new homes in CA will have to build in solar PV for net zero for home electricity use.

We can all learn something useful from how things proceed and there’s no time to prepare for the future like right now.

Yes, indeedy.

*On a scale running from Che Guevara to Bernie Sanders/Elizabeth Warren.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Titanium48
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Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:49 pm

Going full electric and getting rid of gas appliances makes sense if your area's electricity supply is fully decarbonized, but in any place that will still be running (or importing) a significant amount of fossil-fired generation for the forseeable future it makes more sense to go the other way. Burn the gas where you need the heat instead of in a powerplant where 40-60% of that energy will be thrown away. Better still, especially in higher latitude locations where winters are cold and dark and solar PV output is 1/4 of summer or less, would be cogeneration. Replace the gas furnace with a small natural gas fired generator so the waste heat from the fossil fired electricity generation could be put to good use. If your heating requirement is 10 GJ, instead of burning 10.5 GJ of gas in a furnace you burn 12.5 GJ of gas in your generator and produce 2 GJ (555 kWh) of electricity along with all of the heat you need.
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SageBrush
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:50 am

wwhitney wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:33 pm
As for gas versus electric cost, here's what I see in Berkeley:
.
Looks about right for the energy, but three comments:

1, if you are replacing NG entirely, you also do away with the monthly fixed fees
2. Is the $3/watt PV cost net after tax credit ?
3. The social cost of carbon is missing
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danrjones
Posts: 377
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Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:50 am
wwhitney wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:33 pm
As for gas versus electric cost, here's what I see in Berkeley:
.
Looks about right for the energy, but three comments:

1, if you are replacing NG entirely, you also do away with the monthly fixed fees
2. Is the $3/watt PV cost net after tax credit ?
3. The social cost of carbon is missing

The $3 watt installed where I live is before credits, assuming you qualify to use them.
Sadly where I am the fixed fees are higher for SCE electricity than PG&E gas. Unless you go off grid, SCE charges a minimum fee of $10 every month. So if I owe $30, its just $30. In the spring if I net produce, they do net metering, but then charge me $10 for that month anyway.
Many months my gas is less than the minimum SCE fee.
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