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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:38 am
by SageBrush
danrjones wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am

Sadly where I am the fixed fees are higher for SCE electricity than PG&E gas. Unless you go off grid, SCE charges a minimum fee of $10 every month. So if I owe $30, its just $30. In the spring if I net produce, they do net metering, but then charge me $10 for that month anyway.
Many months my gas is less than the minimum SCE fee.
You misunderstand. I am saying that getting rid of NG entirely leaves you with one fixed fee (electric) instead of two fixed fees (electric and NG.)

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:24 am
by danrjones
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:38 am
danrjones wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am

Sadly where I am the fixed fees are higher for SCE electricity than PG&E gas. Unless you go off grid, SCE charges a minimum fee of $10 every month. So if I owe $30, its just $30. In the spring if I net produce, they do net metering, but then charge me $10 for that month anyway.
Many months my gas is less than the minimum SCE fee.
You misunderstand. I am saying that getting rid of NG entirely leaves you with one fixed fee (electric) instead of two fixed fees (electric and NG.)
According to my PG&E bill for gas, there is no fixed fee. They charge on a tier basis per therm and a PPP surcharge per therm. I can't say what would happen if I actually used zero therms though. But on my bill there is no fixed fee.

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:46 pm
by goldbrick
Here is CO there is a fixed access fee regardless of usage. I don't know if one would have to physically dig up and remove the lines and meter to get rid of that for existing buildings but in new construction it would be easy to avoid.

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:48 pm
by SageBrush
goldbrick wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:46 pm
Here is CO there is a fixed access fee regardless of usage. I don't know if one would have to physically dig up and remove the lines and meter to get rid of that for existing buildings but in new construction it would be easy to avoid.
If you turn off access the fee goes away

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:50 pm
by SageBrush
danrjones wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:24 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:38 am
danrjones wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am

Sadly where I am the fixed fees are higher for SCE electricity than PG&E gas. Unless you go off grid, SCE charges a minimum fee of $10 every month. So if I owe $30, its just $30. In the spring if I net produce, they do net metering, but then charge me $10 for that month anyway.
Many months my gas is less than the minimum SCE fee.
You misunderstand. I am saying that getting rid of NG entirely leaves you with one fixed fee (electric) instead of two fixed fees (electric and NG.)
According to my PG&E bill for gas, there is no fixed fee. They charge on a tier basis per therm and a PPP surcharge per therm. I can't say what would happen if I actually used zero therms though. But on my bill there is no fixed fee.
.
I have never seen a utility bill without an access fee. I suppose it is possible but it goes against the standard practice of somewhat separating out infrastructure cost from energy use.

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:34 pm
by danrjones
Maybe someone else with PG&E in SoCal can verify. I'm not defending them, after all they have blown up city blocks, burned down entire towns... but I see no fixed fee. Maybe they have a minimum fee but since I can't really hit zero usage I'll never know.

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:47 pm
by wwhitney
In Berkeley, my PG&E gas bill is $3.40/month if I have zero usage.

Cheers, Wayne

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:17 pm
by iPlug
danrjones wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am
Sadly where I am the fixed fees are higher for SCE electricity than PG&E gas. Unless you go off grid, SCE charges a minimum fee of $10 every month.
It's the same minimum charge with PG&E electricity. IIRC, the CPUC allowed the IOUs to apply this fee this way. You can apply your California Climate Credit to this (see below) and the paltry overgeneration credits we get, for us at ~$0.035/Kwh.

The overgeneration economics on this don't work out well for the consumer, but we haven't paid anything to PG&E for electricity for this in many months.
danrjones wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am
According to my PG&E bill for gas, there is no fixed fee. They charge on a tier basis per therm and a PPP surcharge per therm. I can't say what would happen if I actually used zero therms though. But on my bill there is no fixed fee.
You won't see anything on your bill unless you use very little to no NG.

We are PG&E and although it has been several months since we turned off NG at the meter ourselves, we keep street access on our account turned on (see below). This costs ~$3/month. PG&E calls it a "minimum transportation charge" and it's currently $0.09863/day.
SageBrush wrote:If you turn off access the fee goes away
Yes, but here is where it gets weird. Twice a year, PG&E refunds some state cap/trade money to residents via their utilities via the "California Climate Credit".

The way it is currently implemented by PG&E, you get a refund assigned to your electricity account and separately your gas account. A few months ago for us, they were -$27.70 and -$25.45, respectively. Therefore, it was cheaper for us to officially not turn off NG access but just turn the valve off at the meter. This way we come out a few bucks ahead every 6 months.

Perverse incentive assigned to NG, no? Not sure the CPUC role in this.

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:32 pm
by SageBrush
^^
Perverse, indeed

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:15 pm
by GRA
I suspect the % of customers who've even looked at their bill, made the same calculation and taken the same step as iPlug to be approximately zero, so this doesn't even rise to the level of noise as to how well the cap and trade setup is working. On a list of things that need fixing, this would be about at the bottom.