indyflick
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:41 am

evnow wrote:They probably picked it from some study - but is probably presented wrong. I won't be surprised if the total energy input to get oil (from well to tank) is 7.5 kwh / gallon.
To your earlier point, at the very least, we need to look at the combined electricity kWh as well as NG energy consumed at the refinery. Then the statistic would be stated as kWh of energy used to refine a gallon of gasoline. It was just looking to me that just their electricity consumption on its own was high enough to make the case.

AndyH
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:18 am

evnow wrote:
Rik wrote:Nissan botched it with this number....
They probably picked it from some study - but is probably presented wrong. I won't be surprised if the total energy input to get oil (from well to tank) is 7.5 kwh / gallon.
The number is going to be significantly different if the well is in East Texas and the refinery is in Texas City as compared with a refinery in Louisiana and a source well in Iraq or Saudi Arabia.

And the energy use jumps more if we expand to other factors that allow the oil to flow - destroyers and jets burn a LOT of fuel...
http://www.iags.org/n1030034.htm
NDCF report: the hidden cost of imported oil

The National Defense Council Foundation (NDCF), an Alexandria, Virginia-based research and educational institution has completed its year-long analysis of the “hidden cost” of imported oil. The NDCF project represents the most comprehensive investigation of the military and economic penalty our undue dependence on imported oil exacts from the U.S. economy. Included in this economic toll are:

Almost $49.1 billion in annual defense outlays to maintain the capability to defend the flow of Persian Gulf Oil – the equivalent of adding $1.17 to the price of a gallon of gasoline;
The loss of 828,400 jobs in the U.S. economy;
The loss of $159.9 billion in GNP annually;
The loss of $13.4 billion in federal and state revenues annually;
Total economic penalties of from $297.2 to $304.9 billion annually.
If reflected at the gasoline pump, these “hidden costs” would raise the price of a gallon of gasoline to over $5.28, a fill-up would be over $105.

One striking figure was the cost of the periodic oil shocks the U.S. has experienced over the past three decades which NDCF estimates at from over $2.2 Trillion to almost $2.5 Trillion.

Prior to completion the study underwent an exhaustive peer review by a panel comprised of seventeen individuals with a broad range of expertise including representatives from government, industry and major environmental organizations.

In addition to detailing the costs of America’s import dependence, the NDCF report also outlines the benefits of shifting the U.S. transportation sector to non-petroleum derived fuels.

Rik
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:30 am

evnow wrote:They probably picked it from some study - but is probably presented wrong. I won't be surprised if the total energy input to get oil (from well to tank) is 7.5 kwh / gallon.
Besides oil refining, the other major use of energy in a well-to-tank analysis is oil production (getting it out of the ground). The transportation and marketing of oil and refined products is relatively small by comparison.

The same source of electricity used to refine oil also has some numbers for oil extraction here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_e ... eum-fields
This indicates 33.636 billion kWh to extract oil in the US in 2005.

In 2005, the US produced 8,321,800 b/day = 349,515,600 gal/day = 127,573,194,000 gal/yr of crude oil. (source: US EIA)

So the electricity usage per gallon for oil extraction in the US = 33.636 billion kWh/yr / 127,573,194,000 gal/yr = 0.26 kWh/gal. So it still well under 1 kWh/gal. I don't know how much of this electricity comes from byproducts of petroleum production but it might be a lot. I don't believe they run high voltage power lines out to offshore oil platforms, for example. I think they generate their own electricity on site using byproducts of petroleum production.

If we added up all electricity used to take oil from well to tank it's going to be under 1 kWh/gal. Not anywhere near 7.5 kWh/gal.

In the US, a tiny fraction of the petroleum-based fuels produced is burned to make electricity, and this produces about 54.2 billion kWh/yr of electricity. In some other countries a larger fraction of oil products is used for electricity production. The US exports some petroleum-based fuels that are burned in other countries to make electricity.

I think a more interesting metric would be the amount of natural gas used to take oil from well to tank. We'd need to add up the natural gas used to make electricity and steam, and the natural gas used in fired heaters. We could compare this how much electricity could be delivered to EV batteries if all that natural gas was instead used to make electricity, though we need to subtract the 54.2 billion kWh/yr produced from burning refined fuels in the US and however much electricity is created from the petroleum coke, etc. that the US exports to other countries. If we do that I'm believe the bottom line will still work out to a lot less than 7.5 kWh/gal.

The natural gas used as feedstock in the manufacture of hydrogen for hydrocrackers and hydrotreaters in oil refineries would not "count" for this purpose because it isn't a "fuel" used in a well-to-tank calculation. Hydrogen is a raw material that is used to make refined products just as the petroleum is a raw material used to make refined products.

AndyH
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:49 am

How shall we account for the amount of finished gasoline we import from Europe?

Do any of the record keepers track how much energy is used on a drilling and/or production rig?

If the goal of the exercise is simply to find some numbers to discredit the 7.5 kWh number, than you've done it. If the goal is to understand well to pump energy use we might want to put away the calculator and start by defining the bounds of the problem first.

Or am I completely missing the point?

Rik
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:11 pm

AndyH wrote:How shall we account for the amount of finished gasoline we import from Europe?

Do any of the record keepers track how much energy is used on a drilling and/or production rig?

If the goal of the exercise is simply to find some numbers to discredit the 7.5 kWh number, than you've done it. If the goal is to understand well to pump energy use we might want to put away the calculator and start by defining the bounds of the problem first.

Or am I completely missing the point?
Andy, I don't think you are missing the point. Depending on what the question is, we can bound the problem differently. And it does get complicated.

For me personally, the interesting question is the transition of the economy away from petroleum, and how that would impact energy balances. I have seen studies suggesting that the existing electrical generating capacity in the US is already adequate if the ICE light transportation fleet was replaced with BEV vehicles, so long as we charge our BEV's during off peak hours. NG fired electrical generators that normally slow down or shutdown during off peak hours would need to keep running. We would need to develop substitutes for other refinery products, and aircraft fuels will still need to be high energy density liquids.

indyflick
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:26 pm

AndyH wrote:If the goal of the exercise is simply to find some numbers to discredit the 7.5 kWh number, than you've done it. If the goal is to understand well to pump energy use we might want to put away the calculator and start by defining the bounds of the problem first.
I kinda started this thread with the following goal.
indyflick wrote:I would like to know if Nissan have a white paper available which shows how they derived the "7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline" figure. There are some on the Internet who say it's actually more like 12 to 13 kWh. Other say it's 5 kWh. Still others say its less than 1 kWh.
Not trying to discredit Nissan, just trying to understand their analysis. How did Nissan bound the problem? What were their sources and assumptions. Just looking for a simple white paper.

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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:17 pm

Check this out lots of information.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... #post48703

refining the oil to gasoline
85.5% Petroleum Refining Efficiency: 340 ppm S Conventional Gasoline
From 2001 GM Global Alternative Propulsion Center (GAPC) study done by ANL.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/166.pdf

83.0% Petroleum refining and distribution efficiency
Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Research, Development, and Demonstration Program; Petroleum-Equivalent Fuel Economy Calculation (published in year 2000)

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2000/June ... i14446.htm
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:04 pm

Rik wrote:
AndyH wrote:How shall we account for the amount of finished gasoline we import from Europe?

Do any of the record keepers track how much energy is used on a drilling and/or production rig?

If the goal of the exercise is simply to find some numbers to discredit the 7.5 kWh number, than you've done it. If the goal is to understand well to pump energy use we might want to put away the calculator and start by defining the bounds of the problem first.

Or am I completely missing the point?
Andy, I don't think you are missing the point. Depending on what the question is, we can bound the problem differently. And it does get complicated.

For me personally, the interesting question is the transition of the economy away from petroleum, and how that would impact energy balances. I have seen studies suggesting that the existing electrical generating capacity in the US is already adequate if the ICE light transportation fleet was replaced with BEV vehicles, so long as we charge our BEV's during off peak hours. NG fired electrical generators that normally slow down or shutdown during off peak hours would need to keep running. We would need to develop substitutes for other refinery products, and aircraft fuels will still need to be high energy density liquids.
Actually, it isn't complicated at all when we use pvs or other renewable resources to charge our cars. As the saying goes, "Keep it simple." :D
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evnow
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:17 pm

Extensive WellToWheel analysis for Europe.

http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/WTW

Specifically see this doc : http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/uploads/med ... 010307.pdf

Section 3.1 deals with Oil production, transportation & refining. Petrol uses 14% and diesel 16% of energy from well to tank or about 5 kwh of energy.
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indyflick
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Re: 7.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:05 pm

evnow wrote:Extensive WellToWheel analysis for Europe.

http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/WTW

Specifically see this doc : http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/uploads/med ... 010307.pdf

Section 3.1 deals with Oil production, transportation & refining. Petrol uses 14% and diesel 16% of energy from well to tank or about 5 kwh of energy.
Interesting report, thanks for the pointer. I have a couple of questions. First, I assume you calculated this from 14% of 36.6 kWh per gallon of gasoline, correct? That would be 5.124 kWh. But how did you derive the 14%? It looks like 8% in the chart, what am I missing?

Second, I believe MJ/MJ means the megajoules of energy required to produce an energy product which has one megajoules worth of stored energy, correct? The study says (on page 17) that gasoline MJ/MJ is 0.08. I read in this article that's it's more like 0.20 to 0.25 and gasoline from shale is 0.56 to 0.87!

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