SageBrush
Posts: 5158
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:22 pm

Unlike the people here criticizing the Prime from ignorance, I own this car.
90+ percent of its use in our household is for my 90 mile work commute and our 250 mile each way trips we take once or twice a month. That is far from the ideal scenario for this car but lifetime (since March) we are at 110 MPG*. It was cheaper to buy than a regular Prius hybrid, uses half the fuel, has more safety features, and even the base model has DRCC (aka TACC), a much appreciated driver assist feature.

It is outstanding value.

* plus ~ $2 a month in electricity from my PV
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

RonDawg
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:53 pm

So we now have to actually own the car to be critical of it, and not be called "ignorant?" Wow.

Perhaps the mods should delete the entire 2018 Leaf thread, or at least anything in there that's critical of it, since none are in consumer hands yet.

My biggest criticism of the car is that I feel Toyota could have done better.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

SageBrush
Posts: 5158
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:04 pm

RonDawg wrote:So we now have to actually own the car to be critical of it, and not be called "ignorant?" Wow.
No, you have to have a clue to not be called ignorant.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

RonDawg
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:11 pm

SageBrush wrote:
RonDawg wrote:So we now have to actually own the car to be critical of it, and not be called "ignorant?" Wow.
No, you have to have a clue to not be called ignorant.
And in what way have I been "clueless?" The figures I quoted about price, range, etc. are from reliable sources like FuelEconomy.gov.

And yes if Ford can make a Fusion Energi (a platform not originally designed for electrification) go almost as far as a Prius Prime (which is a newer design) on just its battery, I think Toyota could have done better. Because Hyundai/Kia did just that. It's called an OPINION. You don't have to agree with it, and clearly you don't, but calling me ignorant is over the line and offensive.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

SageBrush
Posts: 5158
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:16 pm

RonDawg wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
RonDawg wrote:So we now have to actually own the car to be critical of it, and not be called "ignorant?" Wow.
No, you have to have a clue to not be called ignorant.
And in what way have I been "clueless?"
You have been busy, so here goes:

1. You said 22 EPA miles EV range
2. You said more expensive than Prius ECO
3. You said $100 savings a year compared to a Prius
4. You are unaware of the features present in a base Prime compared to a base Prius
5. You ignore the range of oil savings the car allows.

1. 25 EPA, although 30 seems to be typical on PriusChat and I get ~ 35
2. Tax credits
3. For my 90 r/t mile work commute I buy ~ 0.8 G of petrol and 15 cents of home PV electricity, so about 2.2 cents a mile. I'll leave the arithmetic to you based on 12k miles a year. In my Prius v(agon) I averaged 52 mpg.
4. Most importantly, DRCC (you know, the feature that cost an extra $4k in the LEAF2.)
5. My fossil fuel consumption has dropped about 50% compared to the Prius I replaced for the same use.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

RonDawg
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:41 pm

SageBrush wrote:
RonDawg wrote:
SageBrush wrote: No, you have to have a clue to not be called ignorant.
And in what way have I been "clueless?"
You have been busy, so here goes:

1. You said 22 EPA miles EV range
2. You said more expensive than Prius ECO
3. You said $100 savings a year compared to a Prius
4. You are unaware of the features present in a base Prime compared to a base Prius
5. You ignore the range of oil savings the car allows.

1. 25 EPA, although 30 seems to be typical on PriusChat and I get ~ 35
2. Tax credits
3. For my 90 r/t mile work commute I buy ~ 0.8 G of petrol and 15 cents of home PV electricity, so about 2.2 cents a mile. I'll leave the arithmetic to you based on 12k miles a year. In my Prius v(agon) I averaged 52 mpg.
4. Most importantly, DRCC (you know, the feature that cost an extra $4k in the LEAF2.)
5. My fossil fuel consumption has dropped about 50% compared to the Prius I replaced for the same use.
1. Which I got from the OP, who wasn't that far off.
2. It is, when comparing MSRP of base models. I do concede that I didn't include government incentives, which will reduce the price.
3. That's from FuelEconomy.gov, who said the Prime would cost $600 over a year to drive, vs. $700 for the Prius Eco and $750 for the regular Prius.
4. I didn't compare features, I was only comparing base MSRP.
5. No I didn't. I even mentioned the overall fuel savings. What I was talking about is how the fuel savings were relatively paltry ($100-150 over a year per FuelEconomy.gov) vs. the initial purchase price. Again I was comparing base MSRP's and not including any government incentives.

So really my error is failing to account for the government incentives when discussing prices. Hardly "clueless."

See how nice and productive it is to have thoughtful discussion without resorting to insults?
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

SageBrush
Posts: 5158
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:42 pm

RonDawg wrote: See how nice and productive it is to have thoughtful discussion without resorting to insults?
Take your own advice, and we won't go down this road.

The problem with the fueleconomy "savings" calculation is the underlying presumption of paying average national grid prices for electricity. That may be true for the unfortunate or the clueless, but everybody else puts up PV and the savings multiply.

The larger point that GRA has been trying unsuccessfully to get through to you is that the Prime has great advantages over its hybrid cousin in many but not all use cases in terms of pollution and fuel consumption; and due to the tax credits and rich bundled features it is an easy choice over the straight hybrid regardless. You obviously did not read my earlier posts before chiming in or you would have realized that the Prime can be a fantastic value. It is not too late for you to become informed.

My experience: Richly optioned, Toyota reliability, > 100 mpg car for $17k.
Last edited by SageBrush on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15285
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:49 pm

The problem with the fueleconomy "savings" calculation is the underlying presumption of paying average national grid prices for electricity. That may be true for the unfortunate or the clueless, but everybody else puts up PV and the savings multiply.
You seem determined to insult as many people as possible. Between renters and those with the wrong kinds of roof or roof exposure (like me, with our slate roof), most people turn out to be either "unfortunate" or "clueless"...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

rcm4453
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:05 pm

GRA wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:25 miles AER just isn't enough. What's that 25 miles going to be in the dead of winter going 70mph on the freeway with the heater on?!

Better off with just the hybrid version as just a few real world miles of electric range is just a tease!
What you mean is that 25 miles AER isn't enough for you. It's enough for plenty of people. If you're going 70 mph on the freeway (in the heart of the commute? not likely) in winter you really don't need the battery in any case; let the engine provide heat. Save the battery for when it gives you the biggest energy and pollution advantage - stop and go freeway driving and surface streets. And, for that small but growing % of the population who can take advantage of charging at both ends, 25 miles AER is plenty for everyone but the super/mega-commuters.

If your commute/routine driving is greater than the Prime's AER and being able to do all of it on the battery is important to you, then the Prime is the wrong choice for you. But the general public isn't so motivated, and according to polls their single biggest impediment to buying an EV is the price compared to an ICE (lack of charging infrastructure is #2). PEVs need to be able to compete on initial and/or monthly payments, especially once the subsidies disappear. For now, the Prime, along with the C-Max Energi, are the only PHEVs that can be nearly full substitutes for ICE equivalents at a price (including the fed. credit) that's close enough to ICEs that many people can afford to extend a bit. In California and other states that have their own credits or rebates, the Prime can be cheaper than the base Prius, so the decision on which one to get comes down to whether or not you need the extra seat and cargo space of the HEV, and whether or not you want all HVAC controls on the touch screen (or maybe I'm thinking of the Mirai). If those issues aren't important to you, then the Prime's the way to go, and that's the way you can get the maximum amount of butts in PEV seats, which will convince many of those people who are currently unwilling to completely change over to BEVs now to upgrade to more capable plugins for their next car, once the costs have come down further and the infrastructure has improved.

Almost no one buys cars based on TCO, even if they have the info to calculate that. What % of the car-buying population even compares insurance premiums for different cars and factors that into their decision? Most people who have to take price seriously into account (which doesn't include the typical new Model S/X buyer) decide whether they can afford a car on based on initial price (or more typically down payment plus monthly payments), as they can estimate with sufficient accuracy for their needs whether they can afford operating costs given EPA mpg. That's about as in-depth as most car buyers get (or want to) when it comes to TCO, so trying to sell cars to the general public based on TCO isn't likely to succeed - it sure hasn't so far, any more than selling them based on green credentials has.

I do agree with the points that you have made. You are 100% right the Prime's AER is no where near enough for me. My point is that for the people looking to drive electric, the Prime falls too short in the AER department. Wouldn't the desire to drive electric be the primary reason anyone would be considering the Prime over a hybrid in the first place? For those who live in states that actually have cold winters that 25 AER is going to be like 10 miles! At that point why even bother?! The consumers who don't care about driving electric will just buy a regular ICE or hybrid. Some lucky folks that live in the right states to receive incentives will buy it over the Hybrid version because it will cost about the same, that's a no brainer for those people. There may be a select number of buyers that don't get the incentives that feel the safety features and tech is worth the additional cost over the hybrid but that's not that many. I know when you look at the monthly sales over at IEVs it appears to be selling quite well but not when compared to mainstream ICE vehicles.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the Prime misses the mark on attracting buyers looking to go electric. It's on point as a hybrid and it's new safety features but there are more affordable options out there for those looking for a hybrid.
Last edited by rcm4453 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RonDawg
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:05 pm

SageBrush wrote:Take your own advice, and we won't go down this road.
YOU went down this road, and continue to do so:
The problem with the fueleconomy "savings" calculation is the underlying presumption of paying average national grid prices for electricity. That may be true for the unfortunate or the clueless, but everybody else puts up PV and the savings multiply.
Perhaps it is YOU who should take your own advice, especially since someone else has also mentioned that you seem "determined to insult as many people as possible."

But I guess when you can't argue facts (like dismissing my quotes from FuelEconomy.gov), you insult. That to me is the ultimate in ignorance.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

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