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Jimmydreams
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Re: Battery Charging

Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:59 am

evnow wrote: All Nissan dealers apparently will have some chargers - that might be a good way to charge on the go.
I never thought of that. A Nissan dealer has to have a way of sending out your new Nissan with a full tank, so why not make their chargers available to Leaf owners. Good thinking!!
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mitch672
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Re: Battery Charging

Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:27 am

I'm sure they will let you use the charger, assuming they don't have a Leaf they have to get out for delivery today... you might have to wait a bit, but I'm sure most would find a way to squeeze you in.
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garygid
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Re: Battery Charging

Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:18 am

An important feature of this "new" charging network is that each charger will report its status in real time, and your Leaf will have access to that information.

The GPS-Nav map should show the stations, and if the individual pumps are "available", "busy charging", down for service, etc.

This single feature will allow us a BIG step forward in the convenient use of EVs.

Now, can we put in a "reservation" (or intention to arrive in N minutes) for a charge?

Does the Leaf have a setting, before we start charging, to only charge "this much", to improve the throughput in the line waiting for the charger?

In fact is there "one line" marked out, for cars to wait for the next available charger?
The database should also show the number waiting, expected wait time, or some such, right?

Or, needing only a 5-minute Quick-Charge to get home, do I get stuck behind the one car with a 2x battery doing a one-hour full fill-up?

Some study of the layout, service times, and queues would seem to be a good thing.

One isolated station, showing busy or available now, does not say enough about what I might find when I arrive about 10 minutes later.
Probably they expect low utilization at first, but the physical layout now might be important for better access later.

Seeing that the station is available right now, but that there are 4 cars in line and 3 others expected to arrive before you ... would be helpful to know before you push your own "I'm headed there" button.
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Re: Battery Charging

Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:33 am

A small article on the 'swapping' versus charging debate


http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10004759/ ... tle-royal/
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Jimmydreams
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Re: Battery Charging

Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:15 am

garygid wrote:An important feature of this "new" charging network is that each charger will report its status in real time, and your Leaf will have access to that information.

The GPS-Nav map should show the stations, and if the individual pumps are "available", "busy charging", down for service, etc.

This single feature will allow us a BIG step forward in the convenient use of EVs.
Gary...

I like this idea. If the charging staion knew how many cars were in line AND it knew the state of charge for each vehicle in line AND the drivers made an input something like "I plan to charge to XX% at this charging station" then it would be very easy to figure out how long your wait would be.

How nice woule THAT be? "Charging station at Main St. has 3 vehicles in line, however vehicle #3 is expected to vacate the charger in 15 minutes" You can pick and choose where you went for a quick charge based on all the above info. Obviously very fluid info based on driver input etc., but the idea is there.
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garygid
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Re: Battery Charging

Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:53 am

More important than the details of the idea is that the hardware components being included in the systen now will be sufficient to be able to support building the idea later.

Apparently the Leaf will be able to get real-time data. Sending real-time data is apparently possible during charging, or to "request" the download of appropriately localized charging-station data.
So, two-way at the car end is there.

The other part is two-way communication at the station.
It can send its status out. But does it need to get (will it accept) commands or data inbound (other than to get charging-subscription card or credit card authorizations)?

Would one swipe a subscription card or credit card upon entering the line? Perhaps awkward.

Better, just read the driver's RFID?

Or, if the line extends off the property onto the street, would the driver just press the "I've entered the Queue" button (after specifying "N" edies for a partial fill, or "F" and the car computes the nunber of edies needed).

Then, your car's system would know enough to calculate the route and expexted time of your arrival, determine the expexted wait time at the station considering those in line and those likely to arrive before you do, and display a number of minutes of estimated wait right "in" the icon on the map. Of course, busy stations with no expexted wait could be yellow where the time-committed estimate would show, the red stations would show the estimared wait time, and green would be available now.

An indication of the number of usable stations of each level (type 1, 2, 3) should also be indicated, with the car taking into account the charging capabilities that the car has (modified by those the driver wants to consider using).

Instead of a "gas station", will this be a "edie station", a sub-station (subscription), or ... "e-up"?
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daniel
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:35 am

mitch672 wrote:I'm sure they will let you use the charger, assuming they don't have a Leaf they have to get out for delivery today... you might have to wait a bit, but I'm sure most would find a way to squeeze you in.
I think this is a pretty big assumption. You are assuming that the charger will be accessible from outside the service area, or that the dealer will be willing to allow you the use of a service bay just for charging. And you are assuming that the dealer will be willing to devote personnel to charging cars. And you are assuming that you can count on availability when you need it.

Other replies above branch into fantasy, in which charging stations are capable of maintaining a waiting list and a reservation system, and drivers plan exactly when they will arrive at a station and actually arrive when they say they will. And what happens if you plan a trip on which you will need to charge and it's a nice day so everyone is out and about and the wait is three hours? Imagine the fights that would arise when Joe reserves a charger for 3:15 but does not arrive until 3:16 and meanwhile George arrives and plugs in! Joe invokes his reservation while George says he was there first. Or when Joe reserves a spot in line and then tries to get in front of George, who arrived before Joe but without a reservation! Now situate this in Los Angeles, where people shoot each other on the freeway for perceived aggressive driving.

Consider the present system with gas cars: We do not rely on a sophisticated system of reservations and advance planning. We rely on a system in which there are so many gas pumps that only when the supply of gasoline is stopped are there lines. It's strictly first-come first-served. Similarly, we need to have enough charging stations (and sufficient grid capacity) that there are always open stations available.

There are things which are possible but which are not practical, and the system of high-level communications at the chargers, and reservations, and driver planning suggested above is not practical, given the hardware needed and the human factor. If I can get a Leaf (which now seems doubtful if the initial roll-out is not state-wide) I'll be charging at home. I may plug into a public charger just so the public can see that the chargers are useful, but I will not assume I can drive more than 100 miles until there are so many chargers that there are always some vacant. And this time will come. The chargers will be built as electric cars are sold, and as the numbers of cars rise, more and more businesses will install chargers for the profit of selling electricity and to attract customers ("Charge while you shop.")
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:51 am

daniel, I do think that many Nissan dealers will probably install a charger outdoors, for the very purpose of convience to their Leaf customers, it's an inexpensive PR move, more than anything else. Most would only plug in for an hour or so, just to get some charge to get home, also most car dealers do not have 480V 3 phase power, so they will be the same Level 2 chargers we have at home, more than likely... I would expect very few dealers to have 480V, let alone want to shell out $50K for a Level 3 charger.

Public infrastructure will come in time, but it will take a few years, probably by 2014-2015 we will be in better shape, and by then I would expect several commercial fast charginf stations to open as well.

you should read the document on this site, if you havn't seen it yet.

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Jimmydreams
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:04 am

daniel wrote: Other replies above branch into fantasy, in which charging stations are capable of maintaining a waiting list and a reservation system, and drivers plan exactly when they will arrive at a station and actually arrive when they say they will. And what happens if you plan a trip on which you will need to charge and it's a nice day so everyone is out and about and the wait is three hours? Imagine the fights that would arise when Joe reserves a charger for 3:15 but does not arrive until 3:16 and meanwhile George arrives and plugs in! Joe invokes his reservation while George says he was there first. Or when Joe reserves a spot in line and then tries to get in front of George, who arrived before Joe but without a reservation! Now situate this in Los Angeles, where people shoot each other on the freeway for perceived aggressive driving.
Daniel...

I think you are missing my point about what is possible. By sending in a 'reservation' you're merely telling the system I plan to travel from my present location straight to charger X and then charge up to X% of my battery. That is merely informational to the entire system so that other displays can react accordingly. No reservation would be a promise of charge access or anything else. But if I'm 20 minutes away from charging station X, and there are 5 people 15 minutes away or less who tell the system they will be at the charger (lets say) 20 minutes each and there are only 2 charger ports, MY GPS could tell me "go ahead to charger X, but you can expect a possible 40 minute wait just to get a charge.". I might go to charger Y in that case. Nothing is set in stone, but the system could utilize all available information to give the status (and PREDICTED staus) of any given charging point.

I don't see this as fantasy, I see this as a logical extension of what can be done with the information available.

Haven't you ever been put on hold and heard "The average wait time is 12 minutes" so you hang up and call back later? That little nugget of information is useful, isn't it? Same thing applied here. 8-)
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garygid
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:52 am

Right, Jimmy, the "estimation" system could be built easily, assuming that the required communication electronics is not omitted from the station, or some patent-holder prohibits the next EV maker from participating. It does not even require Karen to implement it, even I could do it.

We are so overbuilt with gas stations, and fill-ups are so fast, that concentional fueling is rarely of any concern.

I suspect it will be a long while before the same can be said for e-fueling.

Initially the "trivial use" of the EV is simple: limit range and e-fuel at home overnight. The next step is employer-backed Level-2 e-fueling during the day at work.

Next, the more "adventurous" use of the EV will depend upon en-route recharging, initially punctuating the trip rather dramatically. Yes, planning and patience will be required, but the very-doable information system will help considerably.

Good charge-point information, fed into Karen's Trip-Planning & EV Performance Modeling programs, would be quite a useful tool as we set out on the journey to make EVs commonplace, and "get off" oil.
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