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garygid
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:54 am

Yes, we do need to quit using oil, I believe that the only "real" debate is over the timing.
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AndyH
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:58 pm

KarenRei wrote:Level 3 is 480VAC
Level III is also 0-600V direct current and it appears that's what the Leafs will use.

Nissan's docs have consistently shown and listed DC level III in images and text
They use TEPCO chargers in Japan which is a DC method
The are part of the CHAdeMO association
-- headed by the boss of Tokyo Electric Power
-- has the goal of making the TEPCO charger the world quick charge standard
US power companies and charger manufacturers have signed-on with CHAdeMO

Image

Anything can happen, but there's a LOT of momentum behind DC quick charging.

Andy

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:28 pm

Any box on your garage wall that goes into the level 1/2 port is not a charger, it's a smart junction box that supplies ac to the internal charger. The industry is confusing the public with such inaccurate and redundant terms. The lever 3 port accepts dc from an actual charger external to the car. If Nissan only supplies a 3.3kw charger inboard that will be quite weak for a vehicle with a pack of this size, making opportunity charging not much of an opportunity. I'm sure this was a cost cutting measure.

mitch672
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Re: Battery Charging

Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:36 pm

We have heard rumors of later production Leafs have a 6.6KW charger on board (double the initial size), older Leafs may also be upgradeable to the new / additional charger. That would help out a bit. I saw where the J1772 standard can handle up to 16.8KW, so there are possibilities in the future for larger/faster chargers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
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AndyH
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Re: Battery Charging

Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:28 am

EVDRIVER wrote:Any box on your garage wall that goes into the level 1/2 port is not a charger, it's a smart junction box that supplies ac to the internal charger. The industry is confusing the public with such inaccurate and redundant terms.
Maybe that's why 'the industry' calls the 'box on the wall' "Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE)" rather than 'charger'? ;)
EVDRIVER wrote:The lever 3 port accepts dc from an actual charger external to the car. If Nissan only supplies a 3.3kw charger inboard that will be quite weak for a vehicle with a pack of this size, making opportunity charging not much of an opportunity. I'm sure this was a cost cutting measure.
Consumers like things to expand but get upset when it contracts. How would you feel if Nissan quoted an 8-hour recharge, then increased battery size? More battery and more miles driven would also mean a longer charge time - a bit of info that might be a 'negative' to the 'glass half empty' crowd.

There are rumors that the 2012 cars might have longer range - presumably from a larger pack...that will need a larger 'charger pipe' to feed it in 8 hours. Maybe it would be a great move on Nissan's part to move to the 6.6KW Level 2 charger when they move to a larger pack? ;)

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Battery Charging

Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:36 am

AndyH wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Any box on your garage wall that goes into the level 1/2 port is not a charger, it's a smart junction box that supplies ac to the internal charger. The industry is confusing the public with such inaccurate and redundant terms.
Maybe that's why 'the industry' calls the 'box on the wall' "Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE)" rather than 'charger'? ;)
EVDRIVER wrote:The lever 3 port accepts dc from an actual charger external to the car. If Nissan only supplies a 3.3kw charger inboard that will be quite weak for a vehicle with a pack of this size, making opportunity charging not much of an opportunity. I'm sure this was a cost cutting measure.
Consumers like things to expand but get upset when it contracts. How would you feel if Nissan quoted an 8-hour recharge, then increased battery size? More battery and more miles driven would also mean a longer charge time - a bit of info that might be a 'negative' to the 'glass half empty' crowd.

There are rumors that the 2012 cars might have longer range - presumable from a larger pack...that will need a larger 'charger pipe' to feed it in 8 hours. Maybe it would be a great move on Nissan's part to move to the 6.6KW Level 2 charger when they move to a larger pack? ;)

Check around, most press, blogs, articles, and even MFGs, etc call these boxes chargers or charging stations. Charging station is appropriate but not "charger" as there in no charger in the overpriced box. We know that's wrong but they should know better. I really hope the Leaf has 6.6kw charging as I would consider that a minimum for a vehicle of this caliber and back size, 3.3kw is frankly "weak" in more than one sense. Even 25A @ 240 is 6kw, come on Nissan. If I take some longer trips I'm not going to wait all night to charge. All my EVs had at least 4.8kw chargers or greater, even conversions. At least make it an option out the gate..

AndyH
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Re: Battery Charging

Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:58 am

EVDRIVER wrote:Check around, most press, blogs, articles, and even MFGs, etc call these boxes chargers or charging stations.
I feel your pain! That's one of the reasons for miscommunication between 'engineer' types and 'technician' or 'public' types. Just another example of why a paper with 'Nissan' printed on it is likely more accurate than someone on a blog, wiki, or forum... (including me! ;) )

Andy

daniel
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Re: Battery Charging

Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:45 pm

mitch672 wrote:daniel, I do think that many Nissan dealers will probably install a charger outdoors, for the very purpose of convience to their Leaf customers, it's an inexpensive PR move, more than anything else. Most would only plug in for an hour or so...
So the second person to arrive, hoping for an hour's charge to get home, will have to wait two hours, and the third person will have to wait three hours... etc.

I am sure we will see a charging infrastructure built. And these first stations are a needed first step. But early adopters will not be able to count on getting an opportunity charge when they want it, which is why I drive the stinker if I plan on driving farther than my EV's range. Right now that's about 35 miles. If I can get a Leaf, it increases to about 80 miles (I always leave a buffer).
Jimmydreams wrote:Daniel...

I think you are missing my point about what is possible. By sending in a 'reservation' you're merely telling the system I plan to travel from my present location straight to charger X and then charge up to X% of my battery. That is merely informational to the entire system so that other displays can react accordingly...
You are now assuming that people will log on and tell the system that they intend to stop in for a charge. A few people like you will do so. The great majority of ordinary people will not. If they don't need a reservation, or the system does not accept confirmed reservations, they'll just go there and plug in.

Your telephone analogy is flawed because the phone system knows how many people are on hold. The charger will only know how many people have logged on to say they are coming. And I still believe that by the time the technology you describe could be put in place, there will be an adequate number of charge stations available that it won't be needed.
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Re: Battery Charging

Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:33 pm

daniel wrote:
mitch672 wrote:The chargers will be built as electric cars are sold, and as the numbers of cars rise, more and more businesses will install chargers for the profit of selling electricity and to attract customers ("Charge while you shop.")
Daniel and Mitch...First of all, chargers will be installed BEFORE the LEAF is sold...there will be over a thousand of these in each of the five rollout states, with about 50 of those planned to be 'fast' chargers. I also read and heard that at the beginning, there will be no charge for charging at public stations. The electric companies are the ONLY ones allowed to charge for electricity, so later, the charging companies will probably charge for the space.
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mitch672
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Re: Battery Charging

Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:39 pm

leaffan wrote:
daniel wrote:
mitch672 wrote:The chargers will be built as electric cars are sold, and as the numbers of cars rise, more and more businesses will install chargers for the profit of selling electricity and to attract customers ("Charge while you shop.")
Daniel and Mitch...First of all, chargers will be installed BEFORE the LEAF is sold...there will be over a thousand of these in each of the five rollout states, with about 50 of those planned to be 'fast' chargers. I also read and heard that at the beginning, there will be no charge for charging at public stations. The electric companies are the ONLY ones allowed to charge for electricity, so later, the charging companies will probably charge for the space.
That is only is the 10 cities "The EV Project" is involved in. The vast majority of the country will get nothing. The EV Project has a 99.8 million $ grant to do this. In the rest of the country, A few companies will install chargers (I expect the more progresive companies like Walmart or COSTCO to do this), there will be a handful here and there, but nothing like what is going on out West, that will take YEARS to happen in most of the country.
Last edited by mitch672 on Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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