Tokyotony
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Battery endurance for every day commuting

Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:48 am

Hello Nissan representative, me and my wife are wondering if the range capacity of maximum 160km per charge will remain after years of everyday commute of about 70km? And if the battery's capacity will decline with frequent usage what kind of decline are we talking about, say after4-5 years?
Thanks,
Tony

JesswithNissan
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:33 pm

Hi Tony,

The LEAF range per charge is for average, everyday driving conditions - which it seems like you are describing. However, we're not yet addressing battery degradation.

When I am able to share more, I will respond again.

Thanks,
Jessica

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mwalsh
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:51 am

Also interested in hearing about this. The car will be used exclusively for a 60 mile round-trip commute each day, so I can take some degradation over the first few years with no impact. I could even trickle charge @110v for the eight hours I'm at the office once degradation does become significant.
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JesswithNissan
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:01 am

Just to add a bit more since last update, the range is 100 miles based on the LA4 drive cycle – an EPA testing and rating system. Battery capacity decreases with time and use. Actual range will vary depending upon driving/charging habits, speed, conditions, weather, temperature, and battery age.

(Based upon US EPA LA4 city cycle conducted in laboratory tests. See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml.)

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garygid
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:05 am

In CA, the hybrid batteries must be under warranty for 10 years (or 150,00 miles?).

Does that CA law apply to the Leaf (EV) batteries also?

Does the CA law say the batteries need to maintain at least 80% of their original rating during the warranty period (or get replaced)?

What are the drive train, electronics, and battery warranties on the Leaf?
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Dav
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:16 pm

garygid wrote:In CA, the hybrid batteries must be under warranty for 10 years (or 150,00 miles?).

Don't push them too hard, Gary. I don't want them to withhold them from the California introduction just because they cannot afford to meet unrealistic requirements.

Batteries are too much of an unknown at this point. I think California should not have that rule until they know it can actually be met.

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mwalsh
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:56 pm

I agree. It would be COMPLETELY AWESOME if the battery packs DID last for 10 years AND still retained 80% of their capacity, but it's not a deal killer for me if that were to not be the case.

I think you have to accept being a bit of a guinea pig, but that's not unfamiliar territory for most early adopters.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 86,000 miles
2015 pack on 12/30/15
Tinted windows
Bosch AGM 12v
Ecopia 422+ tires
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LED shifter
Heated seats
GT-R map lamp lenses
Altima illuminated door switches

Mesuge
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:24 am

Jess> I'm afraid even your recent short update haven't shed more light on the battery pack degradation issue and warranties as you addressed in this thread in Nov 2009. Don't you think it's a bit high time to annouce answers to these legitimate questions and concerns openly? Lets put on the table the facts we know or we think we know as of now ;) :?

- batt. pack passive aircooled only (inside pack air recirculation only)
- perhaps some positive side-effect from precooling/heating the pack indirectly via above cabin A/C
- dashboard features batt. temp gauge (so it's significant parameter)
- Nissan's presentations talk about ~5yrs lifespan -> after that swap needed for new pack, the old one being used for utility storage application and after that it goes to recycling, some form of credit issued against the purchase of new pack
- given the above the pack degradation will likely vary significantly among different climate regions and usage
- after ~5yrs the real range of Leaf might be derated to ~50-70% of stated range
- therefore the potential customer wants to know what will be the credit given for new pack replacement after say those ~5yrs and how costly is it going to be
- are you going to proactively instruct/warn customers in hot climates how to charge safely?,
i.e. letting the pack to cool off few dozen minutes before charging again, say at high noon in suburban concrete/asphalt jungle conditions, not parking/charging during the day at non shaded areas/sun spots etc.
- pls. don't use the "Nissan's 17yrs expertise in lithium batt. powered vehicles" PR slogan, it's a bit silly, like for me saying I'm a pro-marathon runner in aggregate, after 20yrs of short range jogging..

Do you plan to address these concerns openly before the actual sales commence?
Why don't you, meaning the entire Nissan-Leaf project dept., opt for more transparent approach, say like Tesla or Volt/GM, when they are openly talking about these "detrimental" issues inherited with todays batt. technology from the start and how they deal with it from their respective egineeringing perspectives, e.g. focus on temp managed - watercooled packs. I think it's in your best long term interest to take it seriously, unless this is deliberate strategy to put people into position of "mandatory" upgrading your packs on regular basis, as revenue generating system. Which is obviously your right as business oriented profit seekers, but pls. firstly inform the customers about it.

In Race to Market, Nissan’s Electric Car Takes Shortcuts:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/

Range derating explained
Ex-Tesla Spokesman: EPA's Electric-Vehicle Range Figures Are Grossly Inaccurate:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradviso ... urate.html
Last edited by Mesuge on Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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sjfotos
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:46 am

While I would certainly like the information requested by Mesuge, I think that Nissan is adopting a more phased approach to answering these questions. First, they seem to be setting up the entire launch to carefully monitor who gets their cars and to gather a great deal of information about the first vehicles released. Second, I expect that every car sold in the first year is going to be sold via a Leaf dealer specialist, who is going to be careful about ascertaining who can effectively use this car. I know many think the dealer would just sell any car to anyone. However, in this case, the large bet placed by Nissan on this car is likely to negate that natural inclination.

In the end, given the great variety of factors, this is data that we will only know in detail over time. In the interim, both buyers and Nissan will be better off by using a conservative estimate of both range and battery life. The original poster had a daily commute of 70 miles (I think). I would not risk a daily commute of that length for a new technology in the first generation. I am applying a discount of 50% to any figures given, simply because of the unknown factors and the cost of the purchase.
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Mesuge
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:59 am

sjfotos> agreed, however the Nissan's approach seems so far more like flood the market, be first at all costs. How come that the GM-Volt people can say on camera, they guarantee 8yrs @40mi range with +/- 20% factor? While Nissan refuses to answer it in straightforward fashion. I think people will accept different strategy of Nissan, if explained in rational honest terms, to bring these full BEV kind of vehicles on the market fast and in large numbers at the cost of more "disposable" kind of battery strategy, at least for this first generation.

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