AndyH
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:54 am

Bicster wrote:From Chelsea Sexton's chat with GM-Volt.com yesterday:
2:08 [Comment From Earl ] Chelsea, do you have any idea what kind of battery life is expected on the Volt?
2:09 chelsea: I haven't seen announced estimates from GM, but the state of CA requires a 10-yr /150k warranty so I'm expecting that's the target.
In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to. ;)

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evnow
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:08 am

AndyH wrote: In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to. ;)
Not that it is a long-life battery - what they do is use only 50% of the battery. They have a 16kwh battery and use only 8 kwh of it. Compare that to 80-90% that is used by Leaf or Tesla.

So, with that battery, if someone is allowed to tweak it, we should be able to drive 60 miles on electric easily.
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daniel
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:17 pm

bedrock8x wrote:Is it fair to let the public know the battery warranty spec before they make the pre-order?
Nobody is forced to place a pre-order. Nissan says, "If you want to give us $99 now, we'll take it. And we'll give it back to you any time you change your mind." This helps them gauge demand. There is nothing fair or unfair about it. Personally, I'd buy the car now, sight unseen, because I trust Nissan to build a good car with good battery performance. But more cautious people would be well advised to wait and place their orders after Consumer Reports has tested the car, which presumably will happen as soon as one of their buyers can get one. Or even after the cars have been on the road for a year or two and there's more real-world experience and data on the battery.

Personally, I'm less interested in the details of the battery warranty than in whether I can actually get one before the WA state sales tax exemption expires at the end of this year!
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garygid
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:47 pm

If the Volt battery has only 8 edies "usable" and they expect to get 36 miles in EV mode, that is 4.5 mpe, a rather "good" e-economy, it might seem.
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garygid
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:52 pm

I would love to get the CA $5000, but it appears that it will only be available to the 800 early-test vehicles. (moan)
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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AndyH
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Sat May 01, 2010 3:07 pm

evnow wrote:
AndyH wrote: In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to. ;)
Not that it is a long-life battery - what they do is use only 50% of the battery. They have a 16kwh battery and use only 8 kwh of it. Compare that to 80-90% that is used by Leaf or Tesla.

So, with that battery, if someone is allowed to tweak it, we should be able to drive 60 miles on electric easily.
Sure - but then you're still dragging around an ICE and fuel tank that's a sufficient size to run a car that size without the EV equipment. And expanding the usable SOC range shortens pack life.

For example - the PSI cells with which I work are capable of 2000 cycles at a 1C charge/discharge rate before the cell drops to 80% capacity. That's a cycle per day for almost 5 1/2 years. Looked at another way - if the typical American drives 12,000 miles per year, and we have a 100 mile range, we put 120 cycles per year on the pack. In typical use that's more than 16 years of life for 2000 cycles. (Ignoring cell capacity loss due to time. Might only take 14 years to reach 80% capacity.

There's already a very small pack rebuilding effort in the US - focused on the legacy RAV4, S10, Ranger, Electricar, and Solectria vehicles. There's also the DIY community and they are moving now from lead-acid to lithium. By the time the first Leafs hit their 5th birthday, I expect there to be at least one non-dealer option for pack repair/rebuilding.

Andy
Last edited by AndyH on Sat May 01, 2010 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Sat May 01, 2010 4:20 pm

AndyH wrote:In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to. ;)
You're right. I presumed the warranty requirement applied to EV batteries too. Chelsea Sexton confirmed that there is no EV battery warranty requirement.
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Sat May 01, 2010 10:31 pm

evnow wrote:
AndyH wrote: In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to. ;)
Not that it is a long-life battery - what they do is use only 50% of the battery. They have a 16kwh battery and use only 8 kwh of it. Compare that to 80-90% that is used by Leaf or Tesla.

So, with that battery, if someone is allowed to tweak it, we should be able to drive 60 miles on electric easily.
For the LEAF, someone posted that at a steady 65mph, you should be able to get around 80 miles. So for the Volt's battery, which no one has said, should only get 32 miles at that speed.
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garygid
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Sat May 01, 2010 11:04 pm

I suspect less than 32 mi (at 65) for the Volt. But, who really knows.

My 2010 Prius has about 0.5 kWh available, said to about a mile in EV mode (slow, on the flat). However, there is no 1-mile of "slow" available here (unless I use an empty parking lot on the weekend).
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planet4ever
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Re: Battery endurance for every day commuting

Sun May 02, 2010 3:17 am

garygid wrote:I would love to get the CA $5000, but it appears that it will only be available to the 800 early-test vehicles. (moan)
It's true that the project is only funded for $4.1M at present, for the pool of vehicles that includes the Leaf, but its money comes out of a larger air quality project which is approved through 2015. However, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there might be only about $4M per year for the next five years.

That could work out to considerably less than 800 Leaf's per year, since the same pool is used to give rebates for everything from a Tesla to a GEM, including plug-in cars like the Volt or Prius+ (though the GEM can only get up to $1350 and the Volt $3000).

Reference: http://energycenter.org/index.php/incen ... te-project
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