Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

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danrjones said:
I suspect you can use the same cells, but in a 800 v architecture. But have they out engineered Porsche?
I don't think they have
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?
 
SageBrush said:
danrjones said:
I suspect you can use the same cells, but in a 800 v architecture. But have they out engineered Porsche?
I don't think they have
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?

I honestly don't know where this Porsche comparison came from. I was comparing them to the Ariya. So I'll let you speculate on this subject that I wasn't even thinking of.

But my guess is better hamsters.
At least for Kia. They have a bit of soul.
 
danrjones said:
I honestly don't know where this Porsche comparison came from.

It came from you posting that Hyundai's 800v system give them a charging speed advantage over competitors that is not battery size related. My response is that if true (and ignoring the physics of it all), Porsche would match them and Tesla with its 'inferior' 400v system would slink away with markedly inferior peak charging power.

Neither of which is true.
 
From: https://chargedevs.com/newswire/why-did-porsche-go-to-the-trouble-of-designing-an-800-v-taycan-ev/
Claiming that a higher battery voltage allows for faster charging doesn’t sound right at first. After all, an EV battery has a certain energy capacity in kWh, and it really doesn’t matter if that is achieved with 200 V * 200 Ah, 400 V * 100 Ah or 800 V * 50 Ah. A 100 kW fast charger isn’t going to cram energy back into a battery any faster at 800 V than at 400 V or 200 V; charging time is, quite simply, battery capacity divided by charger power.

However, with all other things equal, the heat energy generated in a conductor is related to its cross-section and the level of current. In the case of DCFC cables and connectors, they are already quite bulky and increasing the size (or cross-section) is not possible if everyday humans are expected to handle them practically. This is why we now see a lot of companies working on liquid-cooled charging cables and increasing the overall system voltage.
 
SageBrush said:
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?
Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5% to 80% percent in exactly 22.5 minutes.
Hyundai said that it can charge the Ioniq 5 from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

So Porsche, 3.33% charge per minute,
Then Hyundai gets 3.89% charge per minute.

That's close enough to be a rounding error between the two. Both using 800V systems, don't know the exact battery capacity of both. I wouldn't call either of them beating the other since just a few seconds delay between plugging them both in to charge could make one or other other win.
 
SageBrush said:
danrjones said:
I honestly don't know where this Porsche comparison came from.

It came from you posting that Hyundai's 800v system give them a charging speed advantage over competitors that is not battery size related. My response is that if true (and ignoring the physics of it all), Porsche would match them and Tesla with its 'inferior' 400v system would slink away with markedly inferior peak charging power.

Neither of which is true.

I only meant over the Ariya. My original point was whether I would want to choose a faster charging vehicle aka the Ionic 5 with 77 kWh pack or a bigger battery, the Ariya with potentially a 90 kWh pack. It certainly appears to me the 800v pack gives them an advantage over the Ariya.
You obviously disagree and that's fine.
 
danrjones said:
SageBrush said:
danrjones said:
I honestly don't know where this Porsche comparison came from.

It came from you posting that Hyundai's 800v system give them a charging speed advantage over competitors that is not battery size related. My response is that if true (and ignoring the physics of it all), Porsche would match them and Tesla with its 'inferior' 400v system would slink away with markedly inferior peak charging power.

Neither of which is true.

I only meant over the Ariya. My original point was whether I would want to choose a faster charging vehicle aka the Ionic 5 with 77 kWh pack or a bigger battery, the Ariya with potentially a 90 kWh pack. It certainly appears to me the 800v pack gives them an advantage over the Ariya.
You obviously disagree and that's fine.

With Hyundai as the notable exception, every other EV averages ~ 1.5 C-rate when charging 20 - 80 of the nominal battery capacity. I'm willing to wager that the Hyundai seekret sauce is either BS, a charge profile that damages the battery, or unused capacity that jacks up the "20 - 80% SoC" test. . Certainly it is not the 800v system.

You real decision here is whether to trust Hyundai to not bake in accelerated battery degradation from its DCFC protocol. You will know once the unused battery capacity is published.
 
danrjones said:
SageBrush said:
danrjones said:
I honestly don't know where this Porsche comparison came from.

It came from you posting that Hyundai's 800v system give them a charging speed advantage over competitors that is not battery size related. My response is that if true (and ignoring the physics of it all), Porsche would match them and Tesla with its 'inferior' 400v system would slink away with markedly inferior peak charging power.

Neither of which is true.

I only meant over the Ariya. My original point was whether I would want to choose a faster charging vehicle aka the Ionic 5 with 77 kWh pack or a bigger battery, the Ariya with potentially a 90 kWh pack. It certainly appears to me the 800v pack gives them an advantage over the Ariya.
You obviously disagree and that's fine.

With Hyundai as the notable exception, every other EV averages ~ 1.5 C-rate when charging 20 - 80 of the nominal battery capacity. I'm willing to wager that the Hyundai seekret sauce is either BS, a charge profile that damages the battery, or unused capacity that jacks up the "20 - 80% SoC" test. . Certainly it is not the 800v system.

You real decision here is whether to trust Hyundai to not bake in accelerated battery degradation from its DCFC protocol. You will know once the unused battery capacity is published.
 
danrjones said:
SageBrush said:
danrjones said:
It is, by choosing which vehicle you buy. Get the Hyundai, and you get charging speed, get the Ariya, and you get longer range. Potentially.
Obviously details on both are still pending, but we know the Hyundai and Kia will hit ~250 kW and 10-80% in 18 minutes. We know they have usable battery capacity of 77 kWh in the United states. We know Nissan originally said 90 kWh for the Ariya long range. Will that translate into more range? TBD?

That is just marketing BS. The high(er) speed charging is from hidden battery capacity

Sometimes that is the case, but not always. Hyundai it is because they moved to 800v.

Take Ford. MachE charges at "max" 150 kW. The f150 lightning was announced to charge also at max 150 kW.
But if you think about that, it does not make sense. We don't know exactly the size of the f150 pack, but the extended range pack might be as much as twice the size of the MachE. Certainly 150%. That should mean that the charging rate should increase by the same amount, after all, that would equal the same charge rate per cell.

So the f150 should have a charge rate of between 225 kW and 300 kW, depending on the actual pack size.

Why doesn't it? I would guess other hardware is the limiting factor. Internal cabling perhaps?

But the point is, its not all just battery size. Personally I think this is one area where ford dropped the ball on the f150.

You are basing charging speed on the max figure alone which is really quite flawed. If you charge at 150 Kw for 50% longer than another pack at the same max speed, you have faster charging.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
You are basing charging speed on the max figure alone which is really quite flawed. If you charge at 150 Kw for 50% longer than another pack at the same max speed, you have faster charging.

Maybe Sage was, but no, I was looking at time to 80% versus overall range, and which was more important.

We could all continue to argue this, and I understand what you are saying SageBrush, that at a cell level it should be similar charging.

What I am not as convinced is that they are necessarily limited by the cell level, rather than other aspects of the pack. Wiring harnesses, thermal solution, whatever. That's why I pointed to Ford. If the only limit was C factor on a cell, the new f150 SHOULD charge between 200-300 kW. But it doesn't, which means that the Lightning versus the MachE must have a smaller C rate at the cell level. Why? I have to assume its because Ford didn't want to beef up some other limiting factor on the pack.

Anyway, back to the Ariya....
 
knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?
Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5% to 80% percent in exactly 22.5 minutes.
Hyundai said that it can charge the Ioniq 5 from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

So Porsche, 3.33% charge per minute,
Then Hyundai gets 3.89% charge per minute.

That's close enough to be a rounding error between the two. Both using 800V systems, don't know the exact battery capacity of both. I wouldn't call either of them beating the other since just a few seconds delay between plugging them both in to charge could make one or other other win.
Ignoring that one starts at 5% "SoC" and the other 10% "SoC" ***, 22.5/18 = 25% longer charging time for the Porsche.
That is not a rounding error. And remember, the Porsche already shifts the charging curve ~ 10 kWh to the left** at nominal full due to the unused capacity.

** IIRC the specs, 93 kWh nominal and 83 kWh usable. The "80% SoC" of the Porsche would be 83*0.8 = 66.4 kWh in the battery, so 66.4/93 = 71% nominal SoC. Addendum: Bjorn Nyland has a nice Audi GT (800v system, big buffer) charging session that shows the car at 160 kW when the "SoC" is 70% and 90 kW when the "SoC" is 80%. That taper shift makes for headline news but it is smoke and mirrors.

*** 5% SoC is ~ 4 kWh, so about a 60 - 90 seconds of charging time
 
SageBrush said:
knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?
Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5% to 80% percent in exactly 22.5 minutes.
Hyundai said that it can charge the Ioniq 5 from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

So Porsche, 3.33% charge per minute,
Then Hyundai gets 3.89% charge per minute.

That's close enough to be a rounding error between the two. Both using 800V systems, don't know the exact battery capacity of both. I wouldn't call either of them beating the other since just a few seconds delay between plugging them both in to charge could make one or other other win.
Ignoring that one starts at 5% "SoC" and the other 10% "SoC" ***, 22.5/18 = 25% longer charging time for the Porsche.
That is not a rounding error. And remember, the Porsche already shifts the charging curve ~ 10 kWh to the left** due to the unused capacity.

** IIRC the specs, 93 kWh nominal and 83 kWh usable. The "80% SoC" of the Porsche would be 83*0.8 = 66.4 kWh in the battery, so 66.4/93 = 71% nominal SoC.

*** 5% SoC is ~ 4 kWh, so about a 60 - 90 seconds of charging time
While I think this part of this topic is getting a little out there... The Taycan is charging 75% and the Ioniq 5 is charging 70%, so that 5% does make a difference. If they both started at 10% SOC, the Taycan would finish 1.5 minutes sooner, so closer to 21 minutes. 1 - 18/21 = 14% faster for the Ioniq 5.

Realistically in Human terms, I don't think the owner of either EV is going to complain that it takes too long relative to the other over a 3 minute gap. That is in relation to the scale of time for a long trip. It's really just an opinion if you believe it beats the other handily at charging speed. In my opinion, for the Hyundai to handily beat Porsche, it would need to be at least twice as fast so that the time frames really have some impact. Say 18 minutes vs 36 minutes for fast charging since handily refers to skill. I don't see Hyundai doing anything that can't be accounted for just having a smaller battery capacity, all things being equal in technology.
 
knightmb said:
Realistically in Human terms, I don't think the owner is either EV is going to complain that it takes too long relative to the other over a 3 minute gap. That is in relation to the scale of time for a long trip.
It is a lie, and marketing deception. It leads to the ignorant media touting the '800 V' system as superior tech and people here swallowing the BS. It will take a while for people to figure out the that the "SoC" charging curve has been corrupted and no longer has any useful meaning -- not that it had much in the first place since in the end the metric of merit is miles of range added per minute starting from ~ 50 miles range and ending at ~ 250 miles. It can be stated as

kWh to add 200 EPA miles of range
Time to add 200 EPA miles of range
 
SageBrush said:
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells
They do?

It seems Taycan uses cells from LG Chem whereas Ioniq 5 uses cells from SK Innovation.
SageBrush said:
It is a lie, and marketing deception. It leads to the ignorant media touting the '800 V' system as superior tech and people here swallowing the BS.
What if Tesla goes to higher voltage charging like 800 volts? Will your tune change?
 
You might be on to something with the "time to 200 EPA miles". But, one could go worse and state "time to 100 EPA miles" and then people that don't know how Lithium battery charging work just do some incorrect mental math and think, only twice the wait to 200 miles or triple the wait to 300 EPA miles. :lol:

Back to the Ariya, so from what I'm reading on the specs, max charging power is 130 kW, so charging 10% SoC to 80% SoC is 35 minutes. If one only buys an EV based on fast charge time and nothing else, then so the free market goes. I wouldn't buy a EV for the fast charge time alone though, many variables such as price and usable stuff have to factor in. Maybe Nissan can use this extra time to decrease the fast charge time, but as we've seen with the cell phones that charge in a few minutes, it comes at a cost to battery life. I would not want to sacrifice battery life to save a few minutes on fast charging for occasional road trips. Someone else that makes frequent road trips and want the extra time savings at expense to the battery, so let the market follow. If the technology of the battery improves so that fast charging doesn't affect battery life, then great! I don't doubt that Nissan could just through more power into the battery if they wanted, but maybe their market research shows something that we don't know about here.
 
cwerdna said:
What if Tesla goes to higher voltage charging like 800 volts? Will your tune change?
When the physics change.

800v systems have advantages. I fully expect truck centric charging to be higher voltage. My point -- that you as well as others fail to grasp -- is that 800v systems do not affect C-rate. I realize that does not mean anything to you so just watch the Bjorn Nyland comparison charging videos instead. All the ~ 90 kWh battery EVs peak at ~ 250 kW regardless of whether the system is 400v or 800v. Moreover, the taper to lower charging rates is not due to the charger, it is due to cell chemistry.

End of story. Physics. Deal with it.
 
knightmb said:
You might be on to something with the "time to 200 EPA miles". But, one could go worse and state "time to 100 EPA miles" and then people that don't know how Lithium battery charging work just do some incorrect mental math and think, only twice the wait to 200 miles or triple the wait to 300 EPA miles. :lol:

Back to the Ariya, so from what I'm reading on the specs, max charging power is 130 kW, so charging 10% SoC to 80% SoC is 35 minutes.
Same incorrect mental math

----
I had the same thought about people incorrectly extrapolating. A little table might help here:

Starting from 50 miles:
50 miles added
100 miles added
150 miles added
200 miles added
250 miles added
300 miles added

Each entry would disclose the kWh and time needed
 
cwerdna said:
What if Tesla goes to higher voltage charging like 800 volts? Will your tune change?

Porsche Taycan's 800-Volt Architecture Enables Slimmer Wiring, Faster Charging, Less Heat

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903284/porsche-taycan-ev-800-volt-charging-performance/

Which implies that at the original charging currents used on 400V BEVs, the charging times can be reduced by 50% for a 800V system
i.e. the charging power has been doubled.

https://insideevs.com/features/427039/800-volt-charging-to-change-industry/

Batteries are going to keep increasing in capacity, though, and even at our current rates of very fast charging, we will end up having to wait an hour or more for a big battery EV to be full. Porsche has an answer to that, a technical aspect that makes its Taycan EV unique - whereas most EVs have a 400V electric system, the Taycan runs on 800V.

If you don’t know what that entails, well, it basically means you can charge it at way higher rates. For example, 400V EVs can be charged at around 150 kW, but there are already even faster 800V chargers out there that can pump juice back into a battery pack at a rate of 350 kW.

Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5 to 80 percent in exactly 22.5 minutes, although it doesn’t quite reach 350 kW, even when using an 800V charger; its maximum charging capacity peaks at 270 kW (it’s closer to 250 kW most of the time) and between 50 and 150 kW from a 400V station. At 150 kW, the Taycan battery’s state of charge is brought up from 20 to 80 percent in a little over 20 minutes.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30894056/porsche-taycan-fast-charging-tesla-model-s/

But Porsche claims a new record maximum charging rate on its new Taycan, a whopping 270 kW when using Electrify America's latest DC fast chargers, which are capable of pumping electricity at up to 350 kW. That's more than double the mainstream 150-kW Tesla Superchargers, although V3 units are rolling out, which raise the peak to 250 kW (the maximum the Model S can accept, however, is 200 kW).
 
An 800V DC fast charger could still charge a 350V, 360V, or 375V battery. Nissan is using 500V to charge their 360V battery with CHAdeMO. How much voltage is actually needed to charge an 800V battery? 1000V?

I thought the limitation on charging was the battery chemistry in terms of power not the voltage? If you feed 1000V @ 50A into any of those batteries, they will all charge at the same rate of 50 kW per second. I understand using higher voltage to reduce the size of wires in the electrical system of the EV for both driving and charging, but how does that exclude the higher voltage charging for the lower voltage batteries?
 
I give up. The median human brain is not equipped to understand the difference between power and energy. Does anyone talk about gallon-hours? Heck no.

Forget kilowatt-hours and kilowatts. Let's just talk in terms of horsepower and and miles.
 
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