GRA
Posts: 13128
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:14 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:33 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:49 pm
From March 29th:
The new Nissan will offer a 7.2 kW charging rate on Level 2 AC, and a 130 kW rate on DC.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan- ... ctric-suv/


Given the large 90kWh (87kWh usable) pack (and somewhat for the smaller 65kWh, 63 usable) the charging rates seem too low, particularly L2. Everyone else has gone to 40 or 48A OBCs for packs this size, with the Lucid going back to the 80A that Tesla offered on the S way back when, so 30 or maybe 32A before overhead and losses just doesn't cut it any more. It won't fully charge the car in 8 hours.
Unless you hardwire the L2 charger, you're limited to a 50 amp plug. furthermore if you are drawing current for more than 3 hours, you're limited to 40 amps max out of that plug or 9.6 KW. There are plug-in chargers that can do that. Now assuming a100KH battery and 80% discharge (90%-10%), 90% efficiency and 240VAC, you need 9.5 hours to charge back to 90%. If you use a 32A charger instead then you're looking at 11.5 hours. Either way, plug it in when you get home and you'll be charged up in the morning. And who says you have to have a full charge in the morning anyway? Won't 60-70% be enough for the day? And how often are likely to discharge to 10% or less.

DCFC charging rates might be a problem if you're pressed for time, but overnight charging with a typical L2 isn't a problem.

I disagree that you'll want to take that much time to charge, as utilities more and more go to ToU rates with restricted hours. SDG&E only has a 6 hour super off-peak window, 12M - 6a.m. I agree that 40A (so that you can use a NEMA 14-50 on a 50A circuit) is reasonable for rental property, or anyone who wants to have the option of portability provided by using a plug-in EVSE. Personally, I'd routinely charge no more than 50-60% (20 or 30% - 80%) and except in extreme circumstances would normally limit myself to 70% max. (20-90%). I've been considering what I'll recommend to my landlord when the time comes, and am thinking that I'd suggest a 60A circuit terminating in a NEMA 14-50 receptacle. That way the occupant can always choose to hardwire it instead for 48A, a simple swap out rather than re-wiring.

Public L2 is a different matter, as those won't need portability, and you want people to be able to get a substantial charge in 2-3 hours (dinner and a movie, say) as well as overnight use.

Restricting to 30-32A or even 40A assumes that packs won't need to continue to grow beyond 100kWh so that they can provide full replacement for fossil-fueled ICEs, and that's extremely unlikely (barring [PH]FCEVs), so 48A or better is what we should aim at. Initially the public ones may be shared some or all the time, but eventually you'll need full power for each EVSE.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 13128
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:23 pm

Dup. post, see next one.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 13128
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:55 pm

frontrangeleaf wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:49 am
I think it's clear to all but a few of us here (ahem, you know who you are...) that the bump to 7.2kw is a nice and very likely adequate feature improvement. We have a 50 amp service installed in our garage, so we could take advantage of it. I believe some of the other makes are talking about 11kw OBCs, but the real need much above 9 is dubious for home use in my view.

Not that concerned with public infrastructure for reasons I've noted often enough, and that goes doubly for L2 charging.

Sure, 7.2 is an improvement over 3.84, but then pack size has increased by an even greater %, and OBC power is increasing accordingly. With the exception of the Ariya, I know of no other BEV with a 65 or more kWh pack introduced in the past year or two or scheduled to be with a 7.2 kW OBC. They're all at 9.6 kW (base) or more. I'll be interested to see what Hyundai/Kia do when they update the Kona and Niro, as those compete with the Bolt/EUV. Clearly the demand for faster L2 is there, just as it is for faster FC'ing.

Re home use, see my comments about off-peak time windows in my reply to John Locke. If you own a home you can put in whatever circuit you want; those forced to use public L2 who don't have guaranteed parking will need to be able to charge several days of use at a time. We won't have public L2s at every public parking space or private employee lot space for decades and probably never, so each available space needs to be used by multiple cars each week. Faster L2 allows a car to charge less frequently, so more cars can be served by the same charger. It also makes opportunity charging more useful.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:12 pm

GRA wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:55 pm
Sure, 7.2 is an improvement over 3.84, but then pack size has increased by an even greater %
But daily miles driven do not increase proportionally with pack size increase. :o

I find it amusing that you trumpet PHEV in one post, and bemoan 7.2 kW in another. Would the real GRA step forward ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

johnlocke
Posts: 716
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Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:25 pm

GRA wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:14 pm
johnlocke wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:33 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:49 pm
From March 29th: https://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan- ... ctric-suv/


Given the large 90kWh (87kWh usable) pack (and somewhat for the smaller 65kWh, 63 usable) the charging rates seem too low, particularly L2. Everyone else has gone to 40 or 48A OBCs for packs this size, with the Lucid going back to the 80A that Tesla offered on the S way back when, so 30 or maybe 32A before overhead and losses just doesn't cut it any more. It won't fully charge the car in 8 hours.
Unless you hardwire the L2 charger, you're limited to a 50 amp plug. furthermore if you are drawing current for more than 3 hours, you're limited to 40 amps max out of that plug or 9.6 KW. There are plug-in chargers that can do that. Now assuming a100KH battery and 80% discharge (90%-10%), 90% efficiency and 240VAC, you need 9.5 hours to charge back to 90%. If you use a 32A charger instead then you're looking at 11.5 hours. Either way, plug it in when you get home and you'll be charged up in the morning. And who says you have to have a full charge in the morning anyway? Won't 60-70% be enough for the day? And how often are likely to discharge to 10% or less.

DCFC charging rates might be a problem if you're pressed for time, but overnight charging with a typical L2 isn't a problem.

I disagree that you'll want to take that much time to charge, as utilities more and more go to ToU rates with restricted hours. SDG&E only has a 6 hour super off-peak window, 12M - 6a.m. I agree that 40A (so that you can use a NEMA 14-50 on a 50A circuit) is reasonable for rental property, or anyone who wants to have the option of portability provided by using a plug-in EVSE. Personally, I'd routinely charge no more than 50-60% (20 or 30% - 80%) and except in extreme circumstances would normally limit myself to 70% max. (20-90%). I've been considering what I'll recommend to my landlord when the time comes, and am thinking that I'd suggest a 60A circuit terminating in a NEMA 14-50 receptacle. That way the occupant can always choose to hardwire it instead for 48A, a simple swap out rather than re-wiring.

Public L2 is a different matter, as those won't need portability, and you want people to be able to get a substantial charge in 2-3 hours (dinner and a movie, say) as well as overnight use.

Restricting to 30-32A or even 40A assumes that packs won't need to continue to grow beyond 100kWh so that they can provide full replacement for fossil-fueled ICEs, and that's extremely unlikely (barring [PH]FCEVs), so 48A or better is what we should aim at. Initially the public ones may be shared some or all the time, but eventually you'll need full power for each EVSE.
Even if you install 6 gauge wire, you can only pull 40 amps out of a 14-50 plug for more than 3 hours by code. The breaker can't be more than 50A if there's a 14-50 plug. Do you really think the landlord is likely to install larger gauge wire on the premise that someone in the future might want to hardwire a charger? He might let them pay for that improvement if they were lucky. If you are talking about destination chargers, why would you expect them to provide you with more than 40 amps? It's a convenience feature. In 3 hours you could suck down 20 KWH anyway. If your utility limits your lowest cost hours, then you might need to charge on two consecutive nights instead of one. If you need to charge faster than that, DCFC is the answer, not 11KW L2.

As far as batteries being larger than 100KWH in the future, maybe for pickups and delivery vans but not for cars. 300-400 mi range is more than adequate and carrying the extra weight for capacity that you don't use is detrimental to efficiency. Delivery vehicles will have charging stations at their home base capable of charging them at whatever speed the manufacturer deems optimal for their use. Semi's will have DCFC chargers. Pickups will be likely charged overnight for most business use. People who haul trailers will be the oddball case. Likely charging overnight for normal use and DCFC when hauling long distances. People tend to buy pickups for specific needs, so a range of battery sizes and hauling capacities are likely.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:40 am

GRA is thinking of himself, and is trying to concoct an argument that his situation represents the country at large (or at least a large enough fraction that infrastructure should be built in a way that he wants.)

His situation:
No home charging
No Workplace charging
Wants cheap electricity at his convenience

Of course, even if the home next door offers him free, 10 kW charging 24/7 he would *still* not buy an EV because he has other complaints about EV cost and long distance driving convenience. And that is the real point: the GRA's of the world are not buying EVs, so it is silly to read their infrastructure preferences, let alone act on them.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:47 am

johnlocke wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Even if you install 6 gauge wire, you can only pull 40 amps out of a 14-50 plug for more than 3 hours by code.
Apt dwellers typically have 60 Amp feeds; most of the housing stock in the USA is around 100 - 125 Amps. I bet the the large majority of these homes struggle or are unable to even support 32 Amp EV charging.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

webeleafowners
Posts: 1254
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Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:36 am

SageBrush wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:47 am
johnlocke wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Even if you install 6 gauge wire, you can only pull 40 amps out of a 14-50 plug for more than 3 hours by code.
Apt dwellers typically have 60 Amp feeds; most of the housing stock in the USA is around 100 - 125 Amps. I bet the the large majority of these homes struggle or are unable to even support 32 Amp EV charging.
It would depend on wether their heat and hot water are gas or electric. We have a 100 amp service. We have two charge stations. A 12 amp 240 volt exterior clipper creek and a 32 amp 240 volt in garage unit. That would not be possible if we didn’t have natural gas. Well, unless we went with solar and on-site storage.
2020 Model 3 Tesla. AWD with FSD. Deep metallic blue. Our daily driver.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh Culis Red. Sold. Was my daily driver. Loved that car.

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:45 am

webeleafowners wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:36 am
SageBrush wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:47 am
johnlocke wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Even if you install 6 gauge wire, you can only pull 40 amps out of a 14-50 plug for more than 3 hours by code.
Apt dwellers typically have 60 Amp feeds; most of the housing stock in the USA is around 100 - 125 Amps. I bet the the large majority of these homes struggle or are unable to even support 32 Amp EV charging.
It would depend on wether their heat and hot water are gas or electric. We have a 100 amp service. We have two charge stations. A 12 amp 240 volt exterior clipper creek and a 32 amp 240 volt in garage unit. That would not be possible if we didn’t have natural gas. Well, unless we went with solar and on-site storage.
Exactly. And in a perverse turn of events, the less expensive and/or older the house, the more likely it has cheap electric appliances and a small capacity electric panel.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jjeff
Posts: 2455
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 am

johnlocke wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:25 pm
GRA wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:14 pm
johnlocke wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:33 pm

Unless you hardwire the L2 charger, you're limited to a 50 amp plug. furthermore if you are drawing current for more than 3 hours, you're limited to 40 amps max out of that plug or 9.6 KW. There are plug-in chargers that can do that. Now assuming a100KH battery and 80% discharge (90%-10%), 90% efficiency and 240VAC, you need 9.5 hours to charge back to 90%. If you use a 32A charger instead then you're looking at 11.5 hours. Either way, plug it in when you get home and you'll be charged up in the morning. And who says you have to have a full charge in the morning anyway? Won't 60-70% be enough for the day? And how often are likely to discharge to 10% or less.

DCFC charging rates might be a problem if you're pressed for time, but overnight charging with a typical L2 isn't a problem.

I disagree that you'll want to take that much time to charge, as utilities more and more go to ToU rates with restricted hours. SDG&E only has a 6 hour super off-peak window, 12M - 6a.m. I agree that 40A (so that you can use a NEMA 14-50 on a 50A circuit) is reasonable for rental property, or anyone who wants to have the option of portability provided by using a plug-in EVSE. Personally, I'd routinely charge no more than 50-60% (20 or 30% - 80%) and except in extreme circumstances would normally limit myself to 70% max. (20-90%). I've been considering what I'll recommend to my landlord when the time comes, and am thinking that I'd suggest a 60A circuit terminating in a NEMA 14-50 receptacle. That way the occupant can always choose to hardwire it instead for 48A, a simple swap out rather than re-wiring.

Public L2 is a different matter, as those won't need portability, and you want people to be able to get a substantial charge in 2-3 hours (dinner and a movie, say) as well as overnight use.

Restricting to 30-32A or even 40A assumes that packs won't need to continue to grow beyond 100kWh so that they can provide full replacement for fossil-fueled ICEs, and that's extremely unlikely (barring [PH]FCEVs), so 48A or better is what we should aim at. Initially the public ones may be shared some or all the time, but eventually you'll need full power for each EVSE.
Even if you install 6 gauge wire, you can only pull 40 amps out of a 14-50 plug for more than 3 hours by code. The breaker can't be more than 50A if there's a 14-50 plug. Do you really think the landlord is likely to install larger gauge wire on the premise that someone in the future might want to hardwire a charger? He might let them pay for that improvement if they were lucky. If you are talking about destination chargers, why would you expect them to provide you with more than 40 amps? It's a convenience feature. In 3 hours you could suck down 20 KWH anyway. If your utility limits your lowest cost hours, then you might need to charge on two consecutive nights instead of one. If you need to charge faster than that, DCFC is the answer, not 11KW L2.

As far as batteries being larger than 100KWH in the future, maybe for pickups and delivery vans but not for cars. 300-400 mi range is more than adequate and carrying the extra weight for capacity that you don't use is detrimental to efficiency. Delivery vehicles will have charging stations at their home base capable of charging them at whatever speed the manufacturer deems optimal for their use. Semi's will have DCFC chargers. Pickups will be likely charged overnight for most business use. People who haul trailers will be the oddball case. Likely charging overnight for normal use and DCFC when hauling long distances. People tend to buy pickups for specific needs, so a range of battery sizes and hauling capacities are likely.
Actually from what I understand it's not the outlet nor wiring that the 80% rule comes into play but rather the breaker that will overheat if you exceed 80% for more than 3hrs. In this case, running a 60a breaker to a 50a outlet with 6g wiring should be fine as long as you don't exceed 48a continuously but the rub would be pulling more than 50a for a shorter period of time. The breaker wouldn't trip but you'd be overstressing the outlet and wiring. Whitney would probably know for sure if this scenario would be OK but I'd be inclined to say it wouldn't by code. Now they make continuous rated breakers where you could continuously pull 50a from a 50a breaker but they seem to be very rare and I personally haven't seen one for such high currents although they may very well be available.
I for one am in favor of high current L2 charging and am really bummed our pre-ordered PHEV(with a larger16kwh battery) will only come with a measly 3.3kw OBC, a step back from our 6.6kw Leaf but I wasn't willing to spend $5k+ extra to get the top of the line model and even then have to order the top of the line package upgrade to get not only the upgraded OBC but also tons other things I didn't want. I personally think 32a(7.7kw) is probably the best compromise for portable(pluggable) EVSEs, maybe 48a(11.5kw) if you wanted to use a 14-60 outlet and reserve faster L2 charging to hardwired EVSE.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

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