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Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:37 pm
by LeftieBiker
This is important: what are your range needs? Because the 30kwh 2016-2017 Leaf batteries have turned out - with a few exceptions - to be very fast-degrading. Unless you only need 50 or 60 miles of range I suggest you either get a 2015 leaf or lease (don't buy) a 2018 Leaf.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:00 am
by WetEV
LeftieBiker wrote:This is important: what are your range needs? Because the 30kwh 2016-2017 Leaf batteries have turned out - with a few exceptions - to be very fast-degrading. Unless you only need 50 or 60 miles of range I suggest you either get a 2015 leaf or lease (don't buy) a 2018 Leaf.
Battery warranted for 8 years and 100k miles.

Nissan would save money to fix whatever problem there is with the 30kWh battery. The replacements might not need replacing as fast.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:26 am
by ayekay
Hi,

Curious why you say lease and not buy a 2018 ?

I live in WA state where sales tax exemption end this month and I'm looking to buy a 2018
LeftieBiker wrote:This is important: what are your range needs? Because the 30kwh 2016-2017 Leaf batteries have turned out - with a few exceptions - to be very fast-degrading. Unless you only need 50 or 60 miles of range I suggest you either get a 2015 leaf or lease (don't buy) a 2018 Leaf.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:49 am
by LeftieBiker
The 2018 Leaf uses a 40kwh battery pack that is disturbingly similar to the terrible 30kwh pack: it has no active thermal management system except a battery heater, has even less passive cooling because of more tightly packed cells, and the chemistry used seems to be designed for energy density rather than thermal resistance. It will be a miracle if this pack holds up well over time, especially in hotter climates.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 am
by WetEV
LeftieBiker wrote:The 2018 Leaf uses a 40kwh battery pack that is disturbingly similar to the terrible 30kwh pack: it has no active thermal management system except a battery heater, has even less passive cooling because of more tightly packed cells, and the chemistry used seems to be designed for energy density rather than thermal resistance. It will be a miracle if this pack holds up well over time, especially in hotter climates.
FUD.

The small difference in cooling between the 30kWh pack and the 24kWh pack don't explain the shorter life of the 30kWh pack, and doesn't say anything useful about the likely life of the 40kWh pack.

Nissan has made a technical error of some sort with the 30kWh pack. While that doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies about any Nissan battery pack doing well, I'm still happier with a pack that doesn't catch fire and burn, like Teslas for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0kjI08n4fg

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:13 pm
by LeftieBiker
You keep misusing the term "FUD." I'm trying to help someone not make a mistake, possibly a bad mistake, and I have no ulterior motive for doing so. You, OTOH, seem determined to encourage people to take a big chance, for no good reason.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:35 pm
by WetEV
LeftieBiker wrote:You keep misusing the term "FUD." I'm trying to help someone not make a mistake, possibly a bad mistake, and I have no ulterior motive for doing so. You, OTOH, seem determined to encourage people to take a big chance, for no good reason.
Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

There are a lot of people throwing FUD for lots of reasons. You are one of them, at least in my NHO. I don't care why.

"Big mistake"? Do explain. Nissan has a battery capacity warranty for "96 months or 100,000 miles". While a car only lasting 8 years and 100,000 miles might not be great, it is not a big mistake to buy such a car.

Buying a car that catches fire, on the other hand, might be a big mistake.

Image

Image

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:50 pm
by Oils4AsphaultOnly
WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:You keep misusing the term "FUD." I'm trying to help someone not make a mistake, possibly a bad mistake, and I have no ulterior motive for doing so. You, OTOH, seem determined to encourage people to take a big chance, for no good reason.
Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

There are a lot of people throwing FUD for lots of reasons. You are one of them, at least in my NHO. I don't care why.

"Big mistake"? Do explain. Nissan has a battery capacity warranty for "96 months or 100,000 miles". While a car only lasting 8 years and 100,000 miles might not be great, it is not a big mistake to buy such a car.

Buying a car that catches fire, on the other hand, might be a big mistake.
You missed a picture:
Image

But you're right, it's not a mistake to get the 2018 leaf .... yet. I'm hopeful that Nissan got their battery life issues under control ... maybe being a bit naive, but let's wait and see until after the summer.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:55 pm
by LeftieBiker
Buying a Leaf with an EPA range of 150 miles because you need most of that range is a big mistake, when the car is likely to lose much of it. Sure, Nissan will replace the battery when the car gets to ~90 miles EPA range, but that isn't much comfort to someone who needs 100, and it's looking like Nissan may be using 80% capacity refurbished packs in a few years - sooner for the 30kwh packs. But you know all of this, yet you continue to sing Nissan's praises. The Leaf is a good car to lease, but with the exception of some 2013-2015 cars, it is not a good car to buy. So I suggest you save the "FUD" accusations for people who are trying to gain from bad-mouthing the cars. I'm telling people it's ok to lease them if they have modest range needs. I'm giving them balanced info, and you're acting like a Nissan salescritter.

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:41 pm
by SageBrush
IMHO @Leftiebiker is giving out reasonable advice.

I suppose I only diverge in saying that if a person is pretty sure that the allowed lease miles and close to fully degraded (per warranty) battery in their climate (quite a mouthful) is enough range then a purchase is better value than a lease since you get about 8/3 times the use for less than 2x the price. And that presumes the worse case of the purchased car having zero value after 8 years. The arithmetic works out to the lease being 4/3 times more expensive for that case.

Not being eligible for the full federal tax credit might swing things around though, and in 8 years a lot can change in the car marketplace and one's personal situation.

---
I am bothered by our newbie education of "required range." We should be pointing out
1. Degradation
2. Climate effects on range
3. Reasonable reserve. It is just not reasonable to expect people to drive the battery down to turtle.
4. Driving habits

I use the following:
1. 40%
2. 25%
3. 10%
4. 0% (EPA type driver)

Starting from 150 mi, adequate range works out to ~ 40 miles for an owner who has no alternative charging or transportation choices.