LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:23 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Given the substantial investment involved in buying or leasing a new EV like the Leaf, and the special circumstances involved in driving any EV, I felt that it would be a good idea to create a guide to help prospective Leaf drivers (and for that matter most other EV shoppers) decide whether buying or leasing makes more sense to them.
You should discuss if the LEAF or any other EV is a realistic choice for them. If you are a salesman, driving worse case 180 miles per day in worse case weather near -20C on snowy and ice roads, no EV today will work well. Not even the Tesla Model S or X, unless there is always a supercharger handy. And maybe not even then.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery ... onditions/

57% loss of range in horrid conditions probably isn't the worst case. This sort of thing hits ICEs as well, but they have faster fueling times and many more fueling stations. And yes, it is less critical than it was in the early days of EVs.

Of course, most people depend on driving far shorter distances in weather than isn't that bad.

Also, if you don't have home charging, or reliable work charging, don't even think about an EV. Public charging can be available, and not available. It can be free, and far more expensive than gasoline. Just a bad idea as the main way of charging your EV.
Done, although probably not as extensively as you'd like.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:27 pm

Higher incentives for buying are dependent of getting the full tax credit. In most of the past; leasing was cheaper "up front" due to full tax credit being applied to the lease cost in addition to Nissan and dealer incentives.

The reality is a guideline shouldn't delve too deeply into the details the programs change so much. Nissan's zero % financing was a tough deal for me to pass up despite my knowing in advance, I would not be happy with the car long term.

I am guessing this will eventually be moved from the threads after completion and a file created?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:31 pm

I am guessing this will eventually be moved from the threads after completion and a file created?
This is basic HTML, and can be easily reposted elsewhere as plain text. I had hoped that people would repost my other several "FAQs" elsewhere, but AFAIK they haven't. I plan to make several sticky posts here, each with links to multiple topics, and this will be one of the links under "EV Shopping."
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
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Re: 2018 LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:31 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: Done, although probably not as extensively as you'd like.
SHOULD YOU DRIVE AN EV AT ALL?
Move this section to the top. Before worrying about details, should you even be thinking about this?

While the driving range of most EVs has improved dramatically in the last couple of years, it still remains less than many people typically drive. If you need 150 miles of range, year round, don't buy or lease a Leaf - look at the Bolt or Model 3 instead. If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then an EV is not presently a good choice for you. A Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) is a much better choice, as the driving range (including use of the gasoline engine) is the same or even greater than that of typical ICE cars. Driving an EV as your sole or main vehicle also means that you must have access to a charging station at home, and if you are commuting more than 80 miles or so, at work as well. Public charging alone is NOT sufficient for most people, and relying on it for all of your charging puts additional strain on a still-inadequate charging infrastructure.
A Bolt is a realistic alternative, but does not have 150 miles of NWR.

EPA range is 238 miles. Cold weather range for a new Bolt has been reported as low as 160 miles.

https://www.slashgear.com/5-things-we-l ... -19485525/

Battery warranty is 60% of original capacity. Add a reserve of 10%. In Montreal, NWR is closer to 86 miles than 150 miles. Rather better in warmer places, but even in some warm place where you never lose range to cold, Hawaii perhaps, NWR isn't more than 130 miles.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:36 pm

I'll look at adjusting ranges. As for first asking if they should be driving an EV at all: remember that they will be reading this here (for now), which very likely means that they are doing research and are not complete newbies. I think it makes more sense to make the range issue more clear. The time taken reading this is modest, and they will learn more for the future if they don't stop after the first section. What I may do instead is add a note at the beginning to pay close attention to the range and charging information.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:17 pm

Great post!

However, can I convince you to change this line:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then an EV is not presently a good choice for you."

To this:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then you should review the available charging options and charging times along your travel routes first before considering an EV."
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:59 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Great post!

However, can I convince you to change this line:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then an EV is not presently a good choice for you."

To this:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then you should review the available charging options and charging times along your travel routes first before considering an EV."
I'm not going to suggest to anyone that in order to travel as far as they need to go, they will always have to charge en route. Not with a 40kwh Leaf. Sorry. I will add "regularly."
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:08 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I'll look at adjusting ranges. As for first asking if they should be driving an EV at all: remember that they will be reading this here (for now), which very likely means that they are doing research and are not complete newbies. I think it makes more sense to make the range issue more clear. The time taken reading this is modest, and they will learn more for the future if they don't stop after the first section. What I may do instead is add a note at the beginning to pay close attention to the range and charging information.
Some of the early adopter that are still around complaining shouldn't have bought or even leased an EV to begin with.

It isn't like owning/leasing an EV is something Dad or Mom did, in most cases. It isn't something your brother can tell you about, in most cases. Assume complete newbies in this discussion, as we have some "old time" newbies in the group.

An EV with an EPA range of 80 miles just isn't realistic for a 50 mile commute, in any climate.

Yes, the first section should have the most important thing: and that is should you even be buying/leasing an EV at all at this time. And perhaps they might work out what they need in an EV before considering one at all.

Once again, this is just wrong:
If you regularly need 150 miles of range, year round, don't buy or lease a Leaf - look at the Bolt or Model 3 instead.
A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii, much less in Denver or New York or Manitoba.

A Model 3 with a long range battery has a warranty of 70% capacity, you need a reserve of 10% or so, and cold weather reduces range a lot, as much as 50% in a very cold place. So again, start with the EPA range of 310 miles, multiply by 0.7*0.9*.5: gets you below 100 miles. If you had a commute with no reliable workplace charging, you might not make comfortably if near the end of warranty on a bad day. Yes, you do have well over 150 miles of NWR in Hawaii. Denver? Probably not. Yukon, no way.

https://www.tesla.com/support/Vehicle-w ... edirect=no
Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:49 pm

Let's agree to disagree. I think you should fight with Oils4AsphaultOnly for a while, instead. ;-) I will note that we're talking about a 150 mile EV here, not an 80 mile one. If the Leaf had had an actual 100 mile range, and it stuck around for a few years, most of the people you mention would still like driving an EV.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:10 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Let's agree to disagree. I think you should fight with Oils4AsphaultOnly for a while, instead. ;-) I will note that we're talking about a 150 mile EV here, not an 80 mile one. If the Leaf had had an actual 100 mile range, and it stuck around for a few years, most of the people you mention would still like driving an EV.
A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii, much less in Denver or New York or Manitoba. Please correct.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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2014 Leaf SL Red
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