LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:27 pm

A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:53 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Great post!

However, can I convince you to change this line:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then an EV is not presently a good choice for you."

To this:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then you should review the available charging options and charging times along your travel routes first before considering an EV."
I'm not going to suggest to anyone that in order to travel as far as they need to go, they will always have to charge en route. Not with a 40kwh Leaf. Sorry. I will add "regularly."
That's the thing. I'm only caveating your line with the fact that almost 1/3 of the US population do not see sub-freezing temps in the winter, so their winter range isn't as adversely affected. So a Bolt or Model 3 are viable EV's for those groups of prospective buyers. With workplace charging, those drivers can even make the 40kwh leaf work (66% remaining battery life would still net a 100-mile range). If the focus of this thread is only on the 40kwh leaf, then suggest the reader consider the Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona EV, Kia Niro EV, or Tesla Model 3, instead of flat out declaring that an EV is presently not a good choice for them.

For a gas vehicle, a 200-mile daily commute would also require a fill-up every 2 or 3 days, that would be no different than stopping by a fast charger for 15-20 minutes on the leg back home (only need enough charge to make it home, not a second 200-mile return trip). Telling these drivers that they should stick with their hybrids is doing them a disservice without considering what their options are.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:01 am

Seriously, you and WetEV need to argue with each other, not me. All the two of you are doing is cementing my position. I figure if both the extremes are unhappy with what I wrote, then I probably got it about right.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:35 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Warranty is 60% capacity. Need a cite for that?

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... Manual.pdf


Math. Really need a cite? Ok.

https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calculator

238 mile range *0.6 = 142 miles.


No reserve allowance, and getting home on turtle wouldn't be fun.

No weather allowance. Wind, rain, snow and cold all happen.

Not cite for these.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

WetEV
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:48 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:For a gas vehicle, a 200-mile daily commute would also require a fill-up every 2 or 3 days, that would be no different than stopping by a fast charger for 15-20 minutes on the leg back home (only need enough charge to make it home, not a second 200-mile return trip). Telling these drivers that they should stick with their hybrids is doing them a disservice without considering what their options are.
Really. I take trips beyond range. I even commuted beyond range for a few weeks. With the current state of public charging, I wouldn't recommend it.

There is and was one DCQC available that is required to make the trip to Seattle. Fallback is and was L2s. I've never had the DCQC down, but it has been busy{edited}.

I've waited over an hour just once because people ahead of me. Think about this: late and you want to get home. But you are watching someone else's car charge. So that another car can charge. So that your car can charge... So you can get home, more than an hour later than planned.
Last edited by WetEV on Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:23 pm

WetEV wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:For a gas vehicle, a 200-mile daily commute would also require a fill-up every 2 or 3 days, that would be no different than stopping by a fast charger for 15-20 minutes on the leg back home (only need enough charge to make it home, not a second 200-mile return trip). Telling these drivers that they should stick with their hybrids is doing them a disservice without considering what their options are.
Really. I take trips beyond range. I even commuted beyond range for a few weeks. With the current state of public charging, I wouldn't recommend it.

There is and was one DCQC available that is required to make the trip to Seattle. Fallback is and was L2s. I've never had the DCQC down, but it has been down.

I've waited over an hour just once because people ahead of me. Think about this: late and you want to get home. But you are watching someone else's car charge. So that another car can charge. So that your car can charge... So you can get home, more than an hour later than planned.
You're doing this commute with a leaf right? And I can see that not working. But how does that translate to being applicable to a model 3? And how does that translate to a commuter who has work place charging? I'm not saying that it works for everyone. I'm saying to not blanket claim that it does NOT work for everyone either. For those who have that specific 200-mile commute, they need to research their situation more carefully, and possibly consider something other than a leaf.

You're in washington state, and I'm in Southern California. Drivers in our areas are going to have very different considerations to make in regards to what works for them. Frankly, I think my wording was more generally applicable than what either of you have put down, since I called for the driver to put in more leg work.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:28 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Warranty is 60% capacity. Need a cite for that?

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... Manual.pdf


Math. Really need a cite? Ok.

https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calculator

238 mile range *0.6 = 142 miles.


No reserve allowance, and getting home on turtle wouldn't be fun.

No weather allowance. Wind, rain, snow and cold all happen.

Not cite for these.
That's a theoretical loss. How about an actual one (ventura, CA): https://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-ba ... 000-miles/

So should still have 200 mile range after 150k miles.

Edit: Having an Active TMS really helps slow down battery degradation.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

SageBrush
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:53 pm

We have the Tesla in my Sig. It is a fine car for trips. I often use it to travel 250 miles each way in a 4 season climate and have charged en-route twice or so. Both times I started the trip will less than a fully charged battery.
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:27 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Warranty is 60% capacity. Need a cite for that?

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... Manual.pdf


Math. Really need a cite? Ok.

https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calculator

238 mile range *0.6 = 142 miles.

No reserve allowance, and getting home on turtle wouldn't be fun.

No weather allowance. Wind, rain, snow and cold all happen.

Not cite for these.
So I should cite a range of 40 miles for the 40kwh Leaf because that's what one down in capacity to just above warranty replacement will get in frigid weather? Give it a rest, please. This is why you get filtered. The cite I requested, BTW, was for a Bolt only getting less than 150 miles of range in Hawaii. The lower speed driving should cancel out most of the A/C use, so it seems you're being a bit silly...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4748
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:08 pm

NIce work Lefty,

RE: the range paragraph
From Spring of 2013 through 2015(when the more heat-resistant “Lizard” pack was introduced), battery degradation became a serious issue mainly for Leaf drivers in Hot local and regional climates, with range loss elsewhere being acceptable.
I'd like to see a number put on 'acceptable,' and I think it worth mention that Nissan goes by capacity bars, a meter no one outside the company completely understands and that may be changed by Nissan if they see fit to do so.

I would also like to see the Nissan battery packs clearly separate from other manufacturers e.g. Tesla in discussions about degradation. It should be clear that the Nissan pack does not have a TMS and its ramifications on degradation in not-cool climates and charge rate.

My personal take on LEAF packs:
They will reach ~ 63% of new capacity within a ~ a year after the time warranty lapses in a moderate climate (summer daily peaks below 90F, average ambient in the 60s F; do better in cooler climates (a good 10 years until capacity is down to ~ 63%) and considerably worse in hot climates -- about 4 - 6 years.

Regarding EPA miles:
So few people understand them. I tell people the highway range is based on 65 mph, dry, decent roads, and no headwind. The EPA attempt to include hot and cold days is less than helpful to EV drivers because the EPA shoots for an annual effect. I figure 10% range loss on a hot day from AC use and up to 30% loss in the winter. The winter loss is much more a YMMV and mostly depends on weather cabin heating is used or people make due with the much more efficient heated seats and (if they have it heated wheel, otherwise gloves.)
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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