Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:48 pm

WetEV wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:The lack of reported battery issues is what I'm relying on.
So how many LEAF 2015 reported battery issues were there in 2016 or 2017? You're letting your experience with a LEAF color your expectations. Especially your experiences with the 2011 and 2012.
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:That posting you cited is indicative of a cell issue that should be covered by warranty, not actual degradation of the pack as designed. Mary Barra recently claimed that GM has yet to replace a single Volt nor Bolt battery pack due to excessive degradation.
GM got the chemistry right the first time. Credit GM. Also, the Volt was a plug in hybrid. Apple vs orange.

The Bolt is too new. Only a disaster of a battery pack would be showing enough degradation at this time. Yes, like Nissan's 2011 and 2012 battery pack. You're letting your experience with a LEAF color your expectations.
Being overly selective with our data aren't we? Why so silent about the 30kwh 2016's? Oh right, because that would defeat your point. FYI, the bolt was available since Dec 2016, so it's had 2 years and are growing.

And why not mention the model S, which has been available since 2012 and hasn't had a degradation issue either? Because that wouldn't fit in with your narrative either?

FYI, I'm not trying to defend the leaf. I'm debating the flaw in not recommending any EV's for a 200-mile commute.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
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WetEV
Posts: 3138
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:35 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Being overly selective with our data aren't we? Why so silent about the 30kwh 2016's?
GM has replaced some Bolt packs for BMS problems as well. And reprogrammed the rest. Didn't you know that? As far as what is known, the 30kWh 2016 problem was a BMS firmware issue. (Oh, I know that Lefty disagrees. But he would, wouldn't he?)

https://gm.oemdtc.com/8849/customer-sat ... et-bolt-ev

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-ni ... reporting/

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:And why not mention the model S, which has been available since 2012 and hasn't had a degradation issue either? Because that wouldn't fit in with your narrative either?

FYI, I'm not trying to defend the leaf. I'm debating the flaw in not recommending any EV's for a 200-mile commute.
Defend the LEAF? Oh, that is very clear. Not the slightest. You are very clear about that.

I think you either misunderstand my narrative, or have one of your own. I probably can't fix this.

200 miles of daily driving probably isn't a commute, but an outside sales job. You drive to and visit with customers. Can't work from home on bad days, as your physical presence, delivering samples and such is the job. These are some of the last people to be able to use an EV. A commute would actually be easier, as you either would or wouldn't have Superchargers on the route. Another marginal case are people that need to drive over 200 miles round trip to get to good shopping. More than that to get to a Starbucks. There is some pretty empty country in the Great Plains.

So what is the top Telsa range? 289 miles, yes? Tesla loses range with cold weather and with time/miles, just like any other EV or ICE. Need a reserve, getting home on turtle isn't wise, fun or sustainable. Do the math. Say 30% range loss for weather (and that can be too low, some places) and 10% capacity loss, and a 10% reserve.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13226
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:37 pm

I'm getting ready to finalize this thing. There will always be the option for me to update it, but any last minute suggestions NOT involving range should come now.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:45 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:There have been those of us who found the range inadequate at the bottom of the 12th bar, but I recall no one, ever, writing that they had 12 bars and felt the range loss was too great to be reasonable.
And the difference here is .... ?

A LEAF can lose up to 15% of new battery capacity and still show 12 bars. That deserves mention and should not be swept under the carpet of your memory or judgement of what is "reasonable."
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:50 pm

WetEV wrote: a 10% reserve.
A 10% reserve in my Model 3 would be 40% reserve in your car. Is that how you operate, and recommend the same for everybody else ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 3138
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:23 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote: a 10% reserve.
A 10% reserve in my Model 3 would be 40% reserve in your car. Is that how you operate, and recommend the same for everybody else ?
A 10% reserve in a city with many nearby charging locations is rather different than a 10% reserve where the next charge station is 60 miles away.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13226
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:59 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: So I should cite a range of 40 miles for the 40kwh Leaf because that's what one down in capacity to just above warranty replacement will get in frigid weather?
WetEV wrote:Show your work.
Degraded to just above the replacement threshold, the range of a 40kwh Leaf is about 80 miles. Now halve that for frigid weather, and voila`! 40 miles. Apparently you only want to apply the true worst case scenario to the Bolt...

LeftieBiker wrote:The cite I requested, BTW, was for a Bolt only getting less than 150 miles of range in Hawaii. The lower speed driving should cancel out most of the A/C use, so it seems you're being a bit silly...
Battery will lose capacity with time and miles, even in Hawaii. Actually, probably faster in Hawaii, due to higher average temperature. And TMS will help less, due to lower range of temperatures. If the TMS starts cooling at 35C, and the battery never gets warmer than the daily high (usual with a moderate commute), and the daily high is 31 C, then the TMS almost never turns on during the day and while driving. Yet there might be some gain. While the night time low is about 26 C, the TMS is reported cool the battery to 27C. Would be a tiny gain from a TMS.
That's a LOT of speculation, with no solid evidence.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13226
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:05 pm

SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:There have been those of us who found the range inadequate at the bottom of the 12th bar, but I recall no one, ever, writing that they had 12 bars and felt the range loss was too great to be reasonable.
And the difference here is .... ?

A LEAF can lose up to 15% of new battery capacity and still show 12 bars. That deserves mention and should not be swept under the carpet of your memory or judgement of what is "reasonable."
I'm not sweeping anything under anything. 15% capacity loss over three years is 5% a year. Most Leaf drivers are prepared for that. My "opinion" on this is based on what people have been writing here for years, not on how I personally feel. If Leaf drivers thought, in general or in smaller numbers, that just barely 12 bars after 3 years were terrible, they would have been writing that. They haven't.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 3138
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:24 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:That's a LOT of speculation, with no solid evidence.
Pot, meet kettle.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:45 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:There have been those of us who found the range inadequate at the bottom of the 12th bar, but I recall no one, ever, writing that they had 12 bars and felt the range loss was too great to be reasonable.
And the difference here is .... ?

A LEAF can lose up to 15% of new battery capacity and still show 12 bars. That deserves mention and should not be swept under the carpet of your memory or judgement of what is "reasonable."
I'm not sweeping anything under anything. 15% capacity loss over three years is 5% a year. Most Leaf drivers are prepared for that. My "opinion" on this is based on what people have been writing here for years, not on how I personally feel. If Leaf drivers thought, in general or in smaller numbers, that just barely 12 bars after 3 years were terrible, they would have been writing that. They haven't.
You are going to be be the judge ? No
Report the facts, and let people decide for themselves. You can write 'Lefty's personal opinion' in you own thread.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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