alozzy
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:47 pm

In British Columbia (BC) where I live, we have a utilities commission (BCUC) that essentially makes it impossible for private enterprises to resell electric power. As a consequence, all of the DC fast charging stations charge by the minute or by the hour.

I find it really annoying that a newer EV owner can charge at a 100 kW rate, while my LEAF charges at a much lower rate and then drops even lower as my 24 kWh tops off, yet we both pay the same amount ($0.21 per minute is typical). In winter, I pay even more as the LEAF charges even slower...

For example, on a recent DC fast charge session, I charged my LEAF for 26 minutes, received 9.6 kWh of energy, and paid $5.58 - so, about $0.60 per kWh!

A newer EV owner could receive 5 times that amount of energy in the same amount of time (if they were able to sustain 100 kW average rate). Thanks to the BC utility commission, I can't pay for the units of energy I actually received.

It's little wonder that those newer EV owners sit and charge for more than an hour, as they are getting a much better deal (closer to $0.12/kWh, which is very reasonable).

I'm curious if this injustice is unique to BC (or other Canadian provinces with monopolized electric power generation), or if it's also common across US states.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
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alozzy
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:04 pm

I know I'm wasting my time, but I just filed a complaint with BCUC.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

SageBrush
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:50 am

It is a patchwork in the USA -- some by the minute and some volumetric.
California legislated volumetric charging in the last year or two.

The discussion in regulatory circles is consumer oriented, but not around cost. The desire is to simplify charging cost to something an average Merkin can understand. Cost per gallon of electricity is their ideal, but cost per kWh is their second best.

And then there are a few interested people that realize that a faster charging network enables the transition to EV, but it is more expensive due mostly to demand charges, but also cost of hardware. They advocate for a democritization/socialization of these costs, meaning e.g that LEAFS like you pay for a service you do not use (for now.)

The predictable irony to the (and funny to me) CA story is that EV owners like cwerdna joined the cry for volumetric pricing thinking it would lead to cheaper charging for them. All they got for their victory was high volumetric charges for everybody.
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

cwerdna
Posts: 12558
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:13 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:50 am
The predictable irony to the (and funny to me) CA story is that EV owners like cwerdna joined the cry for volumetric pricing thinking it would lead to cheaper charging. All they got for their victory was high volumetric charges for everybody.
It's something I wanted but I don't think I ever thought that it would automatically lead to it. If I posted that, I sure have forgotten about that. I'm sure there were some who thought it'd lead to cheaper charging.

I recall being rightfully concerned that per kWh pricing wouldn't necessarily lead to cheaper charging. I'm pretty sure I posted something to that effect. It obviously didn't with EA.

The whole price per kWh legislation in CA is more complicated (e.g. in terms of display requirement, when it goes into effect, etc.)

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SageBrush
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:28 am

cwerdna wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:13 am
It's something I wanted but I don't think I ever thought that it would automatically lead to it.
Your memory is selective, just like your collection of anecdotes.

Let me help you: you whined non-stop that your (up to 55 kW) hobbled Bolt was paying too much for DC fast charging, and you wanted volumetric pricing to reduce your costs. Just like OP
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

cwerdna
Posts: 12558
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:33 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:28 am
Your memory is selective, just like your collection of anecdotes.
:roll:
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:28 am
Let me help you: you whined non-stop that your (up to 55 kW) hobbled Bolt was paying too much for DC fast charging,
No. I was happy with the (IIRC) 18 cent per minute pricing in the sense that if I cut it off at the 1st taper, the effective per kWh rate was low.

However, I was annoyed if charging was slow below 50ish% SoC due to a cold battery.
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:28 am
and you wanted volumetric pricing to reduce your costs.
I don't recall saying that. However, if it became 18 to 20 cents per kWh straight across the board, sure, I'd have been ok with that. But, when companies make changes, who knows what the resulting effective price will be?

Many folks have wanted per kWh billing, for whatever reason (e.g. they wanted to charge fuller and well into the taper(s)). I probably even said something to the effect of "be careful what you wish for". I recall generally staying out of such arguments because I feared what changes could lead to.

Once EA changed to per kWh pricing in CA, I got into arguments with others like these:
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/more- ... ost-588510
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/more- ... ost-588674

If anything, I want cheaper overall pricing, regardless of it's time vs. per kWh-based.

Maybe you're mixing me up with someone else?

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'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
Posts: 2256
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:55 am

This current obsession with reducing charging times isn't going to scale well without a massive infrastructure investment that tax payers end up paying for. Does anyone really need 800V charging? It's a luxury, not a necessity AFAIK.

The irony is that first time EV owners soon realize that the majority of their charging happens at home, overnight, and it meets their range needs. So, the biggest objections to EV adoption - range anxiety and charging time - turn out to be minor complaints for most owners of newer EVs.

Another irony is that those who can least afford DC fast charging, yet will use it the most, are people who live in condos that don't provide L2 charging opportunities. If the world is going to have to switch over to BEVs within the next decade or two, government is either going to have to subsidize EV charging for low income people who can't afford a house, or low income people will have to give up car ownership which puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

FYI, in BC we have flat per kWh pricing for residential, so volumetric pricing isn't a consideration (yet). Even if it was, I would be fine with paying per kWh rates that are time of day based, as that at least means that the person charging his newer EV beside me pays a proportionate amount for the kWhs transferred to the EV pack.

Perhaps a blended approach would be more fair. For example, the first 15 minutes of charging is at a low per kWh rate, then the next 15 minutes increases the per kWh rate by 50%, and after 30 minutes it just gets silly expensive to continue charging.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

webeleafowners
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:21 am

alozzy wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:55 am
This current obsession with reducing charging times isn't going to scale well without a massive infrastructure investment that tax payers end up paying for. Does anyone really need 800V charging? It's a luxury, not a necessity AFAIK.

The irony is that first time EV owners soon realize that the majority of their charging happens at home, overnight, and it meets their range needs. So, the biggest objections to EV adoption - range anxiety and charging time - turn out to be minor complaints for most owners of newer EVs.

Another irony is that those who can least afford DC fast charging, yet will use it the most, are people who live in condos that don't provide L2 charging opportunities. If the world is going to have to switch over to BEVs within the next decade or two, government is either going to have to subsidize EV charging for low income people who can't afford a house, or low income people will have to give up car ownership which puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

FYI, in BC we have flat per kWh pricing for residential, so volumetric pricing isn't a consideration (yet). Even if it was, I would be fine with paying per kWh rates that are time of day based, as that at least means that the person charging his newer EV beside me pays a proportionate amount for the kWhs transferred to the EV pack.

Perhaps a blended approach would be more fair. For example, the first 15 minutes of charging is at a low per kWh rate, then the next 15 minutes increases the per kWh rate by 50%, and after 30 minutes it just gets silly expensive to continue charging.
Kudos for filing the complaint. We also live in BC and are 2 blocks from one of the new combination Supercharger/FLO stations. So 12 x supercharger and 4 x FLO. On the first day it opened we were just coming back from a road trip and arriving home with just below 20 percent on our model 3. For the photo op I thought I would get a picture of the car plugged into a FLO station and a supercharger. FLO was 25 cents per minute and Supercharger was the standard dual tier rate. (I think it’s still 14 cents tier one and 28 cents tier 2 (above 60 KW) but not sure.

Hooked up to the FLO station (50 kw) with the Chademo adapter and I think I got around 42 kw (not sure) for a rate. Took the picture, moved over to the Supercharger and hooked up. (V3 supercharger). It pinned at 250 kw within a minute. Took my picture and went home. But that right there highlighted for me the extreme disadvantage that some EV owners have to put up with. Plain and simply not fair. I’m glad you put in your complaint. I would be happy to submit a complaint if you can tell me where you sent it.

Thanks.
2020 Model 3 Tesla. AWD with FSD. Deep metallic blue. Our daily driver.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh Culis Red. Sold. Was my daily driver. Loved that car.

SageBrush
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:19 am

alozzy wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:55 am
This current obsession with reducing charging times isn't going to scale well without a massive infrastructure investment that tax payers end up paying for. Does anyone really need 800V charging? It's a luxury, not a necessity AFAIK.
800v charging, if anything, *reduces* demand costs.

The irony is that first time EV owners soon realize that the majority of their charging happens at home, overnight, and it meets their range needs. So, the biggest objections to EV adoption - range anxiety and charging time - turn out to be minor complaints for most owners of newer EVs.
Range anxiety occurs during trips. Charging time complaints occur during long trips out of town. At home charging is not relevant to either once the car has consumed its starting energy.

Another irony is that those who can least afford DC fast charging, yet will use it the most, are people who live in condos that don't provide L2 charging opportunities. If the world is going to have to switch over to BEVs within the next decade or two, government is either going to have to subsidize EV charging for low income people who can't afford a house, or low income people will have to give up car ownership which puts them at a competitive disadvantage.
I am so sick of penny pinchers, who could care less about the less monied people, trot them out whenever they want to whine. The known solutions to high demand charges are storage and higher utilization.

FYI, in BC we have flat per kWh pricing for residential, so volumetric pricing isn't a consideration (yet).
Volumetric *means* per kWh. As in: per amount of energy
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15892
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:51 am

alozzy wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:47 pm
In British Columbia (BC) where I live, we have a utilities commission (BCUC) that essentially makes it impossible for private enterprises to resell electric power. As a consequence, all of the DC fast charging stations charge by the minute or by the hour.

I find it really annoying that a newer EV owner can charge at a 100 kW rate, while my LEAF charges at a much lower rate and then drops even lower as my 24 kWh tops off, yet we both pay the same amount ($0.21 per minute is typical). In winter, I pay even more as the LEAF charges even slower...

For example, on a recent DC fast charge session, I charged my LEAF for 26 minutes, received 9.6 kWh of energy, and paid $5.58 - so, about $0.60 per kWh!

A newer EV owner could receive 5 times that amount of energy in the same amount of time (if they were able to sustain 100 kW average rate). Thanks to the BC utility commission, I can't pay for the units of energy I actually received.

It's little wonder that those newer EV owners sit and charge for more than an hour, as they are getting a much better deal (closer to $0.12/kWh, which is very reasonable).

I'm curious if this injustice is unique to BC (or other Canadian provinces with monopolized electric power generation), or if it's also common across US states.
I feel the same way about my 1960's heating system in my house. I am thinking about complaining as well. Can I see what you said for some tips?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
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