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knightmb
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:32 pm

alozzy wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:47 pm
I find it really annoying that a newer EV owner can charge at a 100 kW rate, while my LEAF charges at a much lower rate and then drops even lower as my 24 kWh tops off, yet we both pay the same amount ($0.21 per minute is typical). In winter, I pay even more as the LEAF charges even slower...
I agree on the technical side, you have two EV, one charging faster than the other, so in theory it is consuming more energy faster and ends up paying the same price. So put it in perspective, you have new Leaf+ and a new Tesla Model 3, for the sake of argument, both are using a QC next to each other from the same company. The Leaf is charging at 50 kW, the Model 3 at 250 kW. First, which is creating a greater demand on the grid, well the Model 3. Which one will finish first, well let's say for the sake of argument, both are going to charge for 15 minutes and go about their business, neither owner is in the middle of a road trip. After 15 minutes, the Leaf owner consumed (15/60 * 50,000) 12.5 kWh of power. The Model 3 owner consumed (15/60 * 250,000) 62.5 kWh of power. They both nod to each other, wish each other a good day and drive off. They both get a text message with the bill for the time. They both were only charged a session time of 15 minutes for the same price, so basically the Model 3 got 5x more power for the same price as the Leaf+. Now take those numbers and plug them into utility bill for a consumer and they will ask "why did 5x more power cost the same when the only difference was the vehicle it was being fed into?" and that's where consumers get the rub.

Now, on the flip side, let's be the charge station provider. I build an EV QC station with 5 stations. I want to maximize profit because we ain't doing this out of the goodness of our hearts. The power company won't give me a discount for using "less power", I only get the lower rates the higher I go. So someone charging at 50 kW is going to cost me more than someone charging at 250 kW. The next issue is that I will probably have more people charging at the lower rates than at the higher rates. I also don't want someone having an EV plugged in for hours charging at a low rate and trying to hit 100% SOC also taking up a spot for another customer that could be charging and paying. That's where all those session fees come in, to make up the difference. When then the root of the problem is the power company is only giving discounts for using more power, not less.

So, from my own experience, this is what I've noticed.
To charge my Leaf, Electrify America is the cheapest as it's charging mainly for the power and not the time so much. I can put 200 miles of range on my Leaf for less than $7 most of the time if the battery is low enough and the temperature is good.
Using Blink QC stations, they charge by the minute. That same session to get 200 miles of range ends up costing $32 because of the time needed.
EVGo is a hybrid model with a small charge for kWh consumed, but still a hefty session time charge, so that 200 miles of range ends up costing about $18

These stations are all right next to each other where I live but the price difference is insane, no wonder consumers are confused by all of this.
Imagine if all the gas stations in your town had prices that varied from $2/gallon to $10/gallon for the same gas and not knowing that you are paying too much at one station when you could have driven to another one for cheaper. That's the rub that I think a lot of new EV owners feel when they find this out and for those of us with the technical skills to know what the power consumption of the vehicle means, it seems like some networks are being sensible with pricing and the others are just price gouging the others that don't know any better until they find out from the friend and get angry. :evil:

That is only for those that have that choice like where I am, imagine if your only QC network in town was Blink and you are stuck with those high prices all the time...
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2018 Leaf SL - (Manufacture Date February 2018)
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SageBrush
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:44 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:51 am
I feel the same way about my 1960's heating system in my house. I am thinking about complaining as well. Can I see what you said for some tips?
*That* was funny
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
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johnlocke
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:17 pm

Just as a note. California has mandated charging by the KWH. It applies to new station installs first with old stations being phased into the program at some later date. Seems that they think electrical power should follow the same rules as gas stations. I.E. it's not how long you pump but how much fuel is delivered.
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alozzy
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:40 pm

[Mod: user warned over language - post edited to remove slurs]

Typical, sarcastic comments from * and *. Thanks for your valuable contributions to the discussion. Obviously, I'm just a whiner and I should stop complaining about paying $0.60 per kWh.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:12 am

alozzy wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:40 pm
Typical, sarcastic comments from * and *. Thanks for your valuable contributions to the discussion. Obviously, I'm just a whiner and I should stop complaining about paying $0.60 per kWh.
Sorry, what did you say? MIssed it because I was reading about the people who pay over 30 cents/kwh for "HOME" electricity...

We were ALL in your position and we were ALSO not happy about it but there are options

Do nothing
Do something.

I found complaining didn't do anything.

In reality the argument should be merged into the other "I am persecuted" thread and move you into the "I only drive 2,000 miles a year so its unfair to pay $225 in registration fees every year so I should have a special law just for me and the other 6 people in my situation" crowd.

But the reality is you have chosen to take a VERY VERY good option and complain because its not perfect. Even I don't have the perfect solution with my "100 KW" car (which charges no faster than 76 KW for no longer than 12 mins, btw...)

FYI; in this world, it doesn't take much effort to find something to complain about. We have MULTI billionaires complaining right now despite a seemingly easy, carefree and stressless future. . That is how easy it is to find fault. It does take more energy to realize that life isn't perfect nor should it be. Because if it were, we would lose the desire to strive. To innovate, to adapt.

Finally; come to WA and use the free DC charger courtesy of EVCS. This should cut your costs in half. ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
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SageBrush
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:08 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:12 am
In reality the argument should be merged into the other "I am persecuted" thread and move you into the "I only drive 2,000 miles a year so its unfair to pay $225 in registration fees every year so I should have a special law just for me and the other 6 people in my situation" crowd.
For years, OP has been DCFC'g for free. It was a god given right because he is special. Now some socialist government wants him to help foot the bill of a large infrastructure roll-out.

The nerve !
It's persecution, I tell you
He should sue for mental anguish, dump that POS EV into the nearest lake, and get a hummer.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

LeftieBiker
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:45 pm

Enough with the trolling, you two. The OP has a valid concern and he took reasonable action to make it known. People who blog edit-free and then promote it, or who attack everyone with whom they have the slightest disagreement, are in a poor position to be overly critical.
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johnlocke
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:20 pm

Put up solar and only charge at home! It's the only way to beat the rising cost of electricity. If you have to charge on long trips, that's the cost of doing business.
2022 SV+ 10/22
2016 SL, New battery at 45K mi. Crashed at 95K mi. 9/22
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alozzy
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:40 pm

Request that a mod move this post to the "Local / Regional Discussions" -> "Canada" subforum. I received a reply to the complaint I sent to the BC Utility Commission who in turn got BC Hydro involved. The response would only be of interest to EV owners living in British Columbia, Canada.

Thanks in advance.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

LeftieBiker
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Re: Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:49 pm

Done.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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