I've gone through this whole thread and am still confused. I got my Leaf about 6 weeks ago and am still trying to figure out if I should change to the E9a plan. We use a ton of electricity between airconditioning and pool pumps and are way in the upper tier even before the Leaf. PG&E did a rate analysis that said, without the Leaf, E-1 is $20/yr better than E-6. When I asked about E-9 they said they couldn't calculate that for me. We don't have solar (except for our pool) and won't get it because there is too much shade. (We've had 3 companies come out and try and get it to work for us.) So how do I determine if I stay on E-1 or switch to E-9a?
E-1 vs E9a I'm so confused
- Thread starter Lindabyb
- Start date
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DeaneG
Well-known member
Without knowing your hourly energy consumption for a whole year, you can't really tell what E9 will do to/for you.
But if you need a lot of summer A/C, and don't have solar, I'd skip E9A, as its odds are not good for you. The only way you'd be sure to come out ahead would be to operate your pool pump and A/C only after midnight in the summer.
Winter E9A rates are lower in general than E1, but in the summer the opposite is true. PG&E won't let you switch back and forth every six months, to avoid "rate optimization" by us consumers.
But if you need a lot of summer A/C, and don't have solar, I'd skip E9A, as its odds are not good for you. The only way you'd be sure to come out ahead would be to operate your pool pump and A/C only after midnight in the summer.
Winter E9A rates are lower in general than E1, but in the summer the opposite is true. PG&E won't let you switch back and forth every six months, to avoid "rate optimization" by us consumers.
asinclair
Well-known member
Linda:
I have to agree. I do not have solar or a/c on our house and I opted for E-9a (one meter - whole house). It works for us because we have no kids and are gone most weekdays during the peak hours.
We also have a pool with two pumps (filter and booster for the pool cleaner), but we changed them to run from 12 midnight - 6am each night. We also charge the Leaf at the same time.
For us, because we don't use much electricity during the peak times (mainly the work day times), our overall bill is almost the same as it was before we bought the Leaf.
It doesn't sound like that would work for your situation, and would likely cost you more.
Andrew
I have to agree. I do not have solar or a/c on our house and I opted for E-9a (one meter - whole house). It works for us because we have no kids and are gone most weekdays during the peak hours.
We also have a pool with two pumps (filter and booster for the pool cleaner), but we changed them to run from 12 midnight - 6am each night. We also charge the Leaf at the same time.
For us, because we don't use much electricity during the peak times (mainly the work day times), our overall bill is almost the same as it was before we bought the Leaf.
It doesn't sound like that would work for your situation, and would likely cost you more.
Andrew
DougMarker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2011
- Messages
- 46
DeaneG,
EEk! I switched to E-9 in November and I am saving about $60/month. I saw the summer rates, but didn't see the part where you couldn't switch rates "every six months". Where is this written? I need to read the fine print to look for loopholes!
EEk! I switched to E-9 in November and I am saving about $60/month. I saw the summer rates, but didn't see the part where you couldn't switch rates "every six months". Where is this written? I need to read the fine print to look for loopholes!
waitingforaleaf
Well-known member
Deane's correct in assessing that your energy consumption data is needed to figure out which PG&E Electric Schedule would work out best for you. Based upon your statement about using "a ton of electricity between airconditioning and pool pumps" and already being on the upper tiers before the Leaf, my suggestion would actually be to look into E-9B (installing a second meter for your vehicle charging only). While that electric schedule will likely be subject to substantial changes in the near future, off-peak charging of the Leaf on a separate meter would still likely save you money in the long run (though that also depends upon how many miles you drive on average). Installation costs for the second meter tend to be high at the moment (AFAIK it generally ranges from $1500-3500 so the payoff may take awhile).
I do have a few spreadsheets you could play around with if you'd like to calculate out which rate works best for you. You'll have to do your own homework, unfortunately. I did not convert these files to be compliant with Google Docs, so you may need to download them to your computer before using the files. The first link below is PG&E's own calculator for figuring out which rate schedule will work for you (it's a bit outdated and makes certain assumptions that are likely untrue, such as equal household power usage throughout the day). The second link is one that I've been modifying and may also have certain inaccuracies, particularly with the solar NEM calculations as I haven't actually touched or corrected any of those. Nonetheless, the second sheet has much more options and allows you to modify the hourly use schedule which I find vital in TOU calculations. Based upon your A/C usage, you will likely have to significantly change the summer usage schedule on the second spreadsheet should you use it (as I have it preset for relatively minimal usage based upon my own usage patterns).
PG&E Estimator:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-NyRYp7gfwkRVh2VUpjRVhUbFNjOC05aXZaS1Ffdw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Alternative Estimator:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-NyRYp7gfwkeU5vSGxZeW1USktLdEdHRll3UEI5QQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I do have a few spreadsheets you could play around with if you'd like to calculate out which rate works best for you. You'll have to do your own homework, unfortunately. I did not convert these files to be compliant with Google Docs, so you may need to download them to your computer before using the files. The first link below is PG&E's own calculator for figuring out which rate schedule will work for you (it's a bit outdated and makes certain assumptions that are likely untrue, such as equal household power usage throughout the day). The second link is one that I've been modifying and may also have certain inaccuracies, particularly with the solar NEM calculations as I haven't actually touched or corrected any of those. Nonetheless, the second sheet has much more options and allows you to modify the hourly use schedule which I find vital in TOU calculations. Based upon your A/C usage, you will likely have to significantly change the summer usage schedule on the second spreadsheet should you use it (as I have it preset for relatively minimal usage based upon my own usage patterns).
PG&E Estimator:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-NyRYp7gfwkRVh2VUpjRVhUbFNjOC05aXZaS1Ffdw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Alternative Estimator:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-NyRYp7gfwkeU5vSGxZeW1USktLdEdHRll3UEI5QQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
waitingforaleaf
Well-known member
Lindabyb said:
If you have a SmartMeter, then you can see and export your hourly usage data from PG&E's My Energy webpage. Unfortunately, I believe they are still having issues putting up data for solar users. Not so sure if they've rectified that issue yet or not. Only way to be sure is to check.
waitingforaleaf
Well-known member
They hid it under a small green button on the lower right corner under export your data where you are currently seeing usage info. It should let you export specified time periods as a zip file with 2 .csv spreadsheets inside.
planet4ever
Well-known member
Like Deane, I believe this is true, but I don't know where it is documented. It does seem like a reasonable restriction to keep people from gaming the system. My memory may be faulty, but it seems as if I was told when I signed up for E6 that I was required to stay on that schedule for at least a year.DougMarker said:
Ray
Spies
Well-known member
From http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_12.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;planet4ever said:
oakwcj
Well-known member
To complicate matters further, PG&E has a pending rate increase request which the CPUC has put in regulatory limbo. If it is approved in anything like its current form, both flavors of E-9 would become significantly more expensive for most customers.
DeaneG
Well-known member
And it'd probably be back to E1 for me, charging any time I felt like it.oakwcj said:
Just now thinking about it, while you can't rate-skim by changing tariff plans every 6 months, you might be able to change plans every 18 months and get some cost benefit.
So it seems, until I do more analysis, that I either stay on E-1 or put in a second meter. If I put in a second meter, can the first one be for the house on E-1 and the second be for the Leaf and pool pumps on the E-9b to get the tou benefits. My husband is an electrician and says we shouldn't need trenching.
waitingforaleaf
Well-known member
If you do decide to put in a second meter, then the house and the pool pumps stay on E-1, and the second meter is exclusively used for measuring vehicle electricity usage. As mentioned earlier, the current pricing on E-9B is subject to change should the CPUC approve PG&E's Advice Letter 3910-E, which affects both E-9A and E-9B pricing.
Personally, I believe that flat-rate pricing for E-9b will likely get passed in such a manner that its prices will go up. The main "battle" is being fought is based around the proposed changes to E-9A, where a flat rate plan would lead to substantial increases on customers who overall use less electricity (e.g. an estimated 80% increase on my E-9A electricity bill, which would effectively make E-1 cheaper).
While there has been some suggestions to "grandfather" current E-9 customers, that outcome is certainly not guaranteed. Whether or not it's worth risking a potentially expensive second meter installation is a decision that must take these uncertainties into account. Since your husband is an electrician, he may be able to do the required labor at a much cheaper rate than hired labor so that will also make a big difference in calculations.
Keep us posted on what you've calculated out. I'm fairly interested in the outcome.
edit: I suppose submetering (or subtractive metering) should be mentioned as a potential alternative to second meter installation, but the rules for its implementation remain even more unsettled than E-9 pricing. I doubt that it will be implemented any time this year, but I'm sure someone more involved can chime in if they have any more info on that front...
Personally, I believe that flat-rate pricing for E-9b will likely get passed in such a manner that its prices will go up. The main "battle" is being fought is based around the proposed changes to E-9A, where a flat rate plan would lead to substantial increases on customers who overall use less electricity (e.g. an estimated 80% increase on my E-9A electricity bill, which would effectively make E-1 cheaper).
While there has been some suggestions to "grandfather" current E-9 customers, that outcome is certainly not guaranteed. Whether or not it's worth risking a potentially expensive second meter installation is a decision that must take these uncertainties into account. Since your husband is an electrician, he may be able to do the required labor at a much cheaper rate than hired labor so that will also make a big difference in calculations.
Keep us posted on what you've calculated out. I'm fairly interested in the outcome.
edit: I suppose submetering (or subtractive metering) should be mentioned as a potential alternative to second meter installation, but the rules for its implementation remain even more unsettled than E-9 pricing. I doubt that it will be implemented any time this year, but I'm sure someone more involved can chime in if they have any more info on that front...
planet4ever
Well-known member
Your last statement seems to imply that your husband believes the wires coming into the house are adequate to support both meters. If that is true, and you don't have to pay an electrician <grin>, setting up E-9b should not be too expensive. (Well, unless you live some place like San Francisco where you couldn't do it at all without bribing someone. :lol: ) This could change the balance, though as waitingforaleaf just said, you can't put your pool on the second meter, and we don't know what is going to happen with PG&E's rate application.Lindabyb said:
Ray
