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EVDRIVER
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:45 am

GaleHawkins wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:29 pm
I think Level 3 at home would be cool but since I sleep at least 5 hours nightly at home there really is nothing L3 can do for me that L2 is not doing now since from Empty to Full is 5 hours max in our case with current sizes of batteries. When EV's down the road have 200-300 kWh batteries then a different charging solution will be needed and perhaps we could go days without recharging or could take a few minutes to do it at an EV filling station set up.

The way technology is changing I am find with our $400 40 amp L2 solution it fully meets our needs. Some day that will not cut it but I can worry about that some day. :)

In business I have thrown away $100K's of technology that still worked fine but it was outdated due to technology advancements. One day my J1772 equipment is going to be worthless and I know it. The DC port in our Leafs are going way soon I read due to lack of support but that is not remotely a concern of mine today.

Level 4, 5, 6, etc are coming I am certain but today from fully discharged I can add 30 miles of range in 60 minutes with Level 2 at 26 amps output then run to town and back or just jump into one of 4 other vehicles with gas tanks that we try to keep full just in case.
There is no reason your L2 unit would be useless unless they change the standard and US residential voltages are not going to go above 240V in your lifetime. Unlikely there will be L4, 5 etc for cars, DC fast charging speed is not rated in levels it is just high speed charging which varies presently. L1 is not better for your battery and actually has many disadvantages.

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Marktm
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:01 pm

I've found this useful when describing "levels";
charging-levels-gb-3.jpg
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2012 Leaf SL; 43,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

johnlocke
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:58 pm

With the exception of God Awful Fast sports cars like the new Tesla Roadster or trucks that actually haul trailers or heavy loads, you're not likely to see battery packs beyond 100KWH. Those will use larger battery packs so that they can draw huge currents from the battery, but otherwise most battery packs will stay around 60-75 KWH. They will get smaller, lighter, and cheaper. That's a good thing since the cars they come in will get cheaper as well. Anything in excess of 250-300 miles per charge isn't really necessary. The average driver only drives 30 miles a day so even if you have to use a public charger exclusively. you're only going to need to charge once a week. A larger battery only adds to the cost and doesn't have much of a benefit to the user. The added weight lowers efficiency as well. Smaller packs can easily be charged overnight at home as needed.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

SageBrush
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:12 pm

On cue, Elon has announced via Twitter that Model 'S' will come with a larger pack next year.

Nothing useful will come of starting from what people "need." The question is how much do they want. That seems to be ~ 350 miles range year round.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GaleHawkins
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Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:23 pm

Marktm wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:01 pm
I've found this useful when describing "levels";

charging-levels-gb-3.jpg

Thanks for sharing this chart.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:47 pm

The charging at home needs I expect is going to vary greatly.

There are going to be high end and very high end EV's just as with ICE cars where price is not a concern.

The sub $10K, $20K, $30K and $40K EV's may make up 80% of the market at some point and as noted the chargers of today will cover that well I expect near term. The love affair with cars over the past 75 years is over based on our 22 year old son and daughter who look at value/cost ratios. Cars today look more or less the same because wind tunnel testing is the holy grail in autos these days. Trikes are a good vehicle style and weight for EV's.

Charger needs will change when the lithium ion batteries fall out of favor for some newer technology but when they are dirt cheap they may still appeal to the basic transportation line of EV's.

Self driving is coming but for the 20 year old college student it may not be practical price wise. Time will tell the EV story.

SageBrush
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:52 pm

GaleHawkins wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:44 am
Yes going level 2 is not without a real cost upfront but level 1 is not best for battery health I read.

Our 40 Amp Mustart charger cable was $379. Electrical supplies was about $75 for parts and wire. I wanted to cut power at the 50 amp RV receptacle and that switch box was about $40 so that computer wasn't live 24/7 without unplugging it.
.
Nowadays I think most EV manufacturers provide an L2 mobile EVSE that can work pretty well as a home EVSE. Installing a 14-50 receptacle can be a simple DIY job (or not, YMMV.) At its cheapest, ~ $50 for a 9.6 kW receptacle and circuit.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:53 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:58 pm
With the exception of God Awful Fast sports cars like the new Tesla Roadster or trucks that actually haul trailers or heavy loads, you're not likely to see battery packs beyond 100KWH. Those will use larger battery packs so that they can draw huge currents from the battery, but otherwise most battery packs will stay around 60-75 KWH. They will get smaller, lighter, and cheaper. That's a good thing since the cars they come in will get cheaper as well. Anything in excess of 250-300 miles per charge isn't really necessary. The average driver only drives 30 miles a day so even if you have to use a public charger exclusively. you're only going to need to charge once a week. A larger battery only adds to the cost and doesn't have much of a benefit to the user. The added weight lowers efficiency as well. Smaller packs can easily be charged overnight at home as needed.
Let's revisit that on the 21st after the pickup reveal.

johnlocke
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Re: Level 3 at home

Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:03 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:12 pm
On cue, Elon has announced via Twitter that Model 'S' will come with a larger pack next year.

Nothing useful will come of starting from what people "need." The question is how much do they want. That seems to be ~ 350 miles range year round.
The S Plaid certainly qualifies as a God Awful Fast Car with a Price Tag to match. north of $100K and probably closer to $120K. As for the pickup truck, I'd be surprised if it didn't have a 100KWH even in the base model with higher capacities available. After all it is supposed to haul stuff. It's going after the F150 market so it best be able to tow a horse trailer or 5th wheel at least 200-300 miles in the upper trim models. For a tradesman's truck, it won't need to tow often but that pickup bed is going to be full of tools and supplies plus a couple of hefty gents in the cab.

The fact remains that passenger cars don't need a 350 mile range. Especially if it costs the owner $5-10K more for the privilege. $30K ought to buy you a decent new car. Most people would have trouble adding 33% to that cost just for 75-100 more miles per charge. Volkswagen's ID3 is aimed at that market with a base price around $30,000 with a 48KWH battery. That might be too small for the US but is probably OK for Europe. The ID4 for the US will probably have a 60KWH battery as a base model and an extended range battery(rumored to be 82KWH) available. It will probably compete price wise with the Leaf+ and the model 3. Guesses put it at $35,000 less rebates.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

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Marktm
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Re: Level 3 at home

Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:19 am

A couple of observations. Well, maybe more like possibilities in the next decade:

An inexpensive AC charge controller that can communicate with home energy systems to arbitrage energy costs is currently available. Easy to install in any home environment and can pay for itself if you choose the right energy provider. Emerging bi-directional charge controllers will provide additional economic opportunities once EV manufacturers decide to have an upgrade of a bi-directional on-board charger - and warrant the battery under certain "smart charging" conditions. AC coupled nano-grids can be enhanced by this also.

DC fast charging (level 2+) may survive, but for those that must take longer highway trips and the charge networks are well established. Very expensive to install and maintain as they require 480 VAC installations. However, the DC protocols (level 1) are likely to be most valuable for DC coupled nano-grids (PV based) so that certain homes and most small business solar systems can use their vehicles as the battery energy storage for energy arbitrage. Also, they can then essentially go "off-grid" when needed for emergency/resiliency. SolarEdge (StoreEdge) and Pika Energy equipment support this scenario, but want to sell their own (expensive) energy storage. Again, "smart charging" will impose some limitations, but likely not serious.

As the electrical energy storage for EVs (whatever it might be) becomes larger, lighter and more accessible (V2X), it is possible that the grid's "duck curve" can be potentially eliminated - with renewables supported by EV energy actually providing a balance of day time energy with sufficient storage , then replenished by night time charging. Seems impossible, but if you do the math - absolutely not - as it has only to do with the number of EVs and their energy storage capabilities/usage.
2012 Leaf SL; 43,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

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