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TRONZ
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Leaf Number: 202
Location: Denver, CO

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:40 am

Well first off, the SoCal Nissan dealerships are reporting EVSE installs so these can be added as of today! I Spoke with Fontana Nissan and was told they got their new charging stations up and running this week. Start the data entry!
Every start, is as good as any start can ever be. - Douglas Darden

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2011 LEAF SL VIN#202, Delivered 01.30.11. Now, by far, the oldest LEAF in Colorado.

palmermd
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Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:41 am

DarkStar wrote:Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one... :D

I disagree. People will just charge at home. There is no need to charge when out and about. A long distance trip may be the only exception. Quick charge stations along the interstate may be common. Also charging at work may be common, but charge stations like gas stations all over town will not be common. There is just not any need.
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


Leaf Bar Loss

KeiJidosha
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Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:13 pm

palmermd wrote:
DarkStar wrote:Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one... :D
I disagree. People will just charge at home.
I disagree. I'm planning to go to the convention center and need a 6kWh bump to make it in the EV. Otherwise its 140 miles in the Gas Hog. I use opportunity charging on a ~weekly basis. You will find that evchargenews.com, et all, is a great (liberating) resource once you have an EV. For now, posts from visitors are the best way to know the status of a remote charge site.

Smidge204
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Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:59 pm

DarkStar wrote:Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one... :D
I disagree with the gas station analogy but for technical reasons.

The Leaf has a 24kWh pack (22.8 usable). Normally a gas station can fill a tank in ~2min or less.

To dump 22.8kWh in 2 minutes requires 684,000 watts of power, or 1,710 amps at 400V. Quite simply, that is not the kind of power you want someone with no training to be handling. This is why EVSEs are best suited for locations where a vehicle stays parked for some period of time, rather than a facility dedicated to charging.
=Smidge=

palmermd
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Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:13 pm

KeiJidosha wrote:
palmermd wrote:
DarkStar wrote:Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one... :D
I disagree. People will just charge at home.
I disagree. I'm planning to go to the convention center and need a 6kWh bump to make it in the EV. Otherwise its 140 miles in the Gas Hog. I use opportunity charging on a ~weekly basis. You will find that evchargenews.com, et all, is a great (liberating) resource once you have an EV. For now, posts from visitors are the best way to know the status of a remote charge site.
You've confirmed my post. I also drive an EV. I have since 1997. I charge at home. The only time I charge away from home is when I am taking an unusual trip like to the mall in Sacramento. I plug in when I am there, but otherwise I don't need to charge when I am out and about, its just so much easier to do it at home.

You're example means that you will need to spend 2 hours at the convention center minimum. This is not like stopping at the gas station. It is more like my 2 hour stop at the mall.

We will find that there will be chargers in places like these that people are known to be spending several hours. Work, Ballparks, Malls, Convention Centers. EVSE on the street corner like a gas station it is not.

evchargernews is great. The comments seem to be good, but I still take my gas car to verify the ones that I want to use because it is just not trustworthy enough (at least for me). I've not found any bad information, but I just like to know what is there before taking my car out of range. Otherwise I might be stuck on some random street corner charging my car for 2 hours with nothing to do other than to thank my host for saving my bacon.

And back to the thread topic, I like this new site. There seems to be some improvements to the evchargernews site, but it is missing LOTS and LOTS of charge stations, and it is missing the updated comments from the other site. If it catches on and the posts are trustworthy, then it could be really nice. I like that you can attach photos of the site.
Last edited by palmermd on Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


Leaf Bar Loss

DarkStar
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Leaf Number: 568
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
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Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Smidge204 wrote:
DarkStar wrote:Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one... :D
I disagree with the gas station analogy but for technical reasons.

The Leaf has a 24kWh pack (22.8 usable). Normally a gas station can fill a tank in ~2min or less.

To dump 22.8kWh in 2 minutes requires 684,000 watts of power, or 1,710 amps at 400V. Quite simply, that is not the kind of power you want someone with no training to be handling. This is why EVSEs are best suited for locations where a vehicle stays parked for some period of time, rather than a facility dedicated to charging.
=Smidge=
I have never, never, had my tank filled or seen someone else get theirs filled within 2 minutes (I'm in Oregon though... no self-serve gas). Most gas stations you have to wait in line for, and then wait for the attendant. But then again, what I meant is that when you need one, they'll be plentiful and everywhere you go.

Opportunity charging will mean no more range anxiety (or whatever they call it these days)! If you always plug in whenever you reach your destination, odds are you'll rarely even get below 50% SOC after a day of driving.
Mikiko (2011 Nissan LEAF ETEC) Status:
Reserved: 04/20/10 | Ordered: 10/01/10 | EV Project Blink Installed: 03/22/11 | Delivered: 03/25/11 | VIN: 568

Oregon Electric Vehicle Association | Electric Auto Association

DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
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Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:57 am

Ranch; thank you for your efforts

comment on duplicity; when talking about any software app, there are a lot of apps that supposedly do the same thing. now how well they work across multiple platforms, user interface, server reliability, etc. is really not quantifiable in advance. so to say "been there, done that" to something that has just started is a bit presumptuous at this point.

i agree with Ranch's statement that we all need to get something started and as always, the cream will rise to the top. fragmentation of data will only happen if there is more than one application that works very well. the only thing from that point is how well one can merge the information from one to another and that is OUR job.

these are user inputs. dont assume that because one works best for you that that is true for everyone. EV's are a great idea, The US simply doesnt know it yet. We are the bleeding edge, we are the mentors for the rest of the country. we can lead or we can let it go.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tps
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Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:58 am

DarkStar wrote:I have never, never, had my tank filled or seen someone else get theirs filled within 2 minutes
2 minutes may be a bit optimistic, but I think 4-5 minutes is reasonable here in the Philadelphia suburbs. Most of the gas stations I've used have enough pumps that I usually don't wait, and self-serve with a card reader right on the pump means I'm pumping gas within a minute of pulling in. But this routine will be a thing of the past when I get my LEAF.

My daily routine is around 40 miles, so for the most part, overnight charging at home will suffice. But for an occasional trip, destination charging and or fast-charging along the freeway would be nice. I can anticipate driving to Washington DC if there were a couple strategically placed fast-charge points along I95. Although Amtrak goes down there a lot, sometimes it's nice to have a car in DC, depending on the itinerary. Although NYC would also be a possible with fast-charge along the turnpike, I'd rather park at Princeton Junction and take the train, but it would be great if L1 or L2 charging was available at park-and-rides such as this. Definitely a reliable source of EVSE information would make trip planning a lot easier.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:16 am

a Plug in Prius owner ran a poll wanting people to time their gas station trips. now this was clock on as soon as you pulled into the station, clock off as soon as you pulled out.

i averaged between 4 mins 22 seconds (no waiting and station was not busy) to 8 mins 40 seconds (there were longer times but discounted due to unusual circumstances) most were within 30 seconds +/- of 5 mins and 40 seconds.

disclaimer; on my times i use Costco gas which is all credit card run. so no waiting in line to pay, etc. also Costco is a huge place, frequently busy but i use the left lane all the time simply because 90% of the time there is one available or the line is much shorter. most people have fillers on the right side so only use the right side even if it means waiting in a much longer line, strange

now, this does not count the "out of the way" time. many will only go to certain gas stations (i am one of them) because of perceived quality, price, credit card discounts, etc. but the Costco area is a place that has many destinations in my itinerary, so the detour does add maybe 2 minutes or so even if going to Costco to shop (its actually a much shorter detour if shopping at the store next to Costco which i do regularly as well)

the guy's point was to illustrate how much LESS time is devoted to simply plugging in at home. (he feels that he failed as many reported shorter than expected times)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smidge204
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:49 am

DarkStar wrote:I have never, never, had my tank filled or seen someone else get theirs filled within 2 minutes (I'm in Oregon though... no self-serve gas). Most gas stations you have to wait in line for, and then wait for the attendant. But then again, what I meant is that when you need one, they'll be plentiful and everywhere you go.
Sorry for picking this nit so much but I've seen opponents of EVs use the "gas station analog" argument a lot, and I don't want to risk perpetuating the idea that we'll need to convert gas stations to charging stations. (No fuel for their fires!)

Waiting in line doesn't matter - the only time period that counts for comparison is between the moment the energy/fuel starts to flow and when the vehicle's store is full. The limit is rate of energy transfer so the time to actually pull up and operate the pump makes no difference. Gasoline pumps can crank out as much as 10 gpm (filling a bone-dry 30 gallon tank in 3 minutes). Since most people don't let it get that low, actually squeezing the handle for 2 minutes to fill a tank that holds a total of 12-20 gallons is not unreasonable.

Consider that a gas pump rigged for 6 GPM is effectively loading your car up with energy at a rate of 12 megawatts.

The "gas station" model for EV charging is wrong because a centralized facility for charging is actually counter-productive. Electricity is a low density, high efficiency energy. Hydrocarbon fuel is high density, inefficient energy. That's your trade off, and you pay for it with time-to-transfer. The notion that you'll leave the house 10 minute earlier and stop by the charging station on your way to work, like you would for gasoline, is completely unrealistic. Opportunity charging is not just the optimal model, but really the only workable model. Battery swap stations would only be a niche service that has it's own set of (solvable) problems, but that's another topic.
=Smidge=

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