GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Electrify America Network

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:05 am

I wish I had your optimism, Guy. I don't see Tesla installing CCS plugs for a while. For now, having the supercharging network helps them sell more cars. I know of people who would rather have bought a Bolt, but chose a Model 3 for the supercharging network, for example.

In a few years, when EA + EVGo + ChargePoint + others start to approach the coverage that Tesla has, that advantage will be gone. At that point, it would make sense for Tesla to open their network and sell electricity to other drivers as well.

Back in 2016, when Tesla first showed the Model 3's charging port, the first thing I noticed was how large it was. I'll admit, I was hoping that maybe they would release the car with a CCS plug. While that hasn't happened in the US, it has overseas, as you point out. This is encouraging indeed. Hopefully the next iteration of the S/X design follows suit with a larger, more accommodating charge port door.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
Posts: 11089
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:38 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:I wish I had your optimism, Guy. I don't see Tesla installing CCS plugs for a while. For now, having the supercharging network helps them sell more cars. I know of people who would rather have bought a Bolt, but chose a Model 3 for the supercharging network, for example.

In a few years, when EA + EVGo + ChargePoint + others start to approach the coverage that Tesla has, that advantage will be gone. At that point, it would make sense for Tesla to open their network and sell electricity to other drivers as well.

Back in 2016, when Tesla first showed the Model 3's charging port, the first thing I noticed was how large it was. I'll admit, I was hoping that maybe they would release the car with a CCS plug. While that hasn't happened in the US, it has overseas, as you point out. This is encouraging indeed. Hopefully the next iteration of the S/X design follows suit with a larger, more accommodating charge port door.
I wasn't suggesting that they'd open up the SCs to CCS cars from other manufacturers now, only that they'd switch to CCS themselves going forward at some point, allowing their future cars to use not only the SC network, but also all other CCS QC networks (as they can use CHAdeMO, albeit with an adapter). As the % of Teslas fitted with CCS instead of Tesla connectors increased, they would gradually switch more and more of the connectors over, but always leaving one or two on the old standard until the Model S/Xs are gone. It might eventually make sense to open the SC network up to other makes when they can do the billing, and the number of non-Teslas outnumber the Teslas. At that point it would probably make sense to spin off the SC network into a separate for-profit company, but grandfather in current owners at the (supposedly non-profit) old rates.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

KeiJidosha
Gold Member
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Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Electrify America Network

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:17 pm

"Electrify America Chief Provides Update On EV Charging Build-Out

The plan for a new massive network of ultra-fast networks faces challenges. But it’s on track, according to Electrify America."

https://insideevs.com/exclusive-electri ... -charging/

"Electrify America, which is in regular dialogue with all the EV makers, has insight into the timing for cars that can handle higher charging rates. They are primarily from European, Korean, and Chinese automakers. “If you build up 50-kilowatt stations now, then it’s very likely that you will be obliged to update that station no longer than 12 months,” said Palazzo. He explained that the emerging charging technology requires Electrify America to offer 150- to 350-kW charging."
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace HSE

WetEV
Posts: 3159
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Electrify America Network

Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:43 pm

KeiJidosha wrote:He explained that the emerging charging technology requires Electrify America to offer 150- to 350-kW charging."
EA's CHAdeMO is 50kW. I suspect that will not change.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

GRA
Posts: 11089
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:17 pm

IEVS:
Electrify America To Add Tesla Powerpacks To 100 New Charging Stations
https://insideevs.com/electrify-america ... -stations/
. . . Some may ask why onsite energy storage is necessary for EV charging, and the simple answer is demand charges. Demand charges are based on the highest draw the customer (in this case all the charging stations at one location) uses from the utility during a set period of time in a given month, usually carved up into 15-minute intervals.

Demand charges vary from utility to utility in the US, but they are so costly they make it nearly impossible for DC Fast charge stations to even break even, let alone be profitable. For example, I own and manage a 24 kW DC fast charger on my property in Montclair, NJ. I pay 12 cents per kWh for my electricity supply, but because the DC Fast charger pulls so much energy at once, I have to pay demand charges for it, pushing the cost of my electricity up well over $1.00 per kWh. . . .

The reason we haven’t seen widespread use of battery storage with EV charging sites has been the upfront cost. Network providers have done the math, and it was less expensive to just pay the demand charges, than it would have been to spend $50,000 to $100,000 for the onsite battery storage systems. Hopefully, this announcement means the cost is finally getting down to the point where it is becoming financially viable.

Each Electrify America site in this program will consist of a 210 kW battery system, with roughly 350 kWh of capacity. They have a modular design, and will allow for more capacity to be added over time. That will become necessary, once there are multiple EVs plugging in and pulling 150+ kW at the same location. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DeeAgeaux
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:52 pm

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:30 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:As I wrote on the “Mission E” thread, I take this as good news. VWAG is taking EVs seriously. EA’s network is now critics to the success of one of their flagship products. Unlike a certain other network, EA is not a walled garden; it is available for all EVs to use. That they have financial motivation to maintain and improve it is a boon to all EV drivers.
EA doesn't have to be a protocol "walled garden" with its pricing scheme. Don't be surprised to see VW giving favorable pricing scheme for its customers while we are left out in the cold.
EA is giving "favorable pricing" for its customers. The Taycan comes with 3 years free! If that's not favorable pricing, nothing is. And no, I'm not surprised by it. Nor am I upset. Sure, I wish that they were more in line with EVGo's pricing. But the truth is, if you could actually use 150kW, the pricing is better than EVGo's (3X the power for much less than 3X the cost).
EA isn't giving anything away. Porsche is and paying EA the same rate any other company can.

Jaguar can give their IPace customers three years of free charging if they want to and pay the same rate to EA Porsche is paying.

Favorable pricing to VW companies or customers is strictly prohibited by the settlement VW made with U.S. Prosecutors in dieselgate and is being enforced by the US Judge that approved the settlement.
Last edited by DeeAgeaux on Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

DeeAgeaux
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:52 pm

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:38 am

GRA wrote:I expect that Tesla will eventually start converting SC stalls as well as the Model 3/Y to CCS-1 in the U.S., as that's rapidly becoming the standard here, with all legacy U.S., European, and Korean companies using it. As of now, who's using CHAdeMO? Nissan and Mitsubishi? Honda bailed to CCS. What will likely determine the final fate of CHAdeMO outside Japan will be Toyota's decision on what standard to use, once they start producing BEVs for the world market.

Tesla's already providing GB/T for China and CCS-2 for the E.U., and the justification for continuing to expand the SC network while serving only Teslas is rapidly fading. After all, the SC network was built because "We can't afford to wait for others to do it", or words to that effect from Elon. As others are now 'doing it', the need for Tesla to continue going it alone (and sinking large amounts of cash they need for other programs) is not there. And agreeing to a single nationwide or even better continent-wide charging standard can only help in accomplishing Tesla's original mission, which isn't to build cars or chargers, it's "to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable transport" (later modified to "accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy", reflecting the acquisition of Solar City, battery storage etc).
The only way the Supercharger standard is going away is the same way it is happening in the European Union and in China. By government fiat. They are doing so to benefit local automakers.

I don't see that happening in the US but stranger things have happened. Are supposedly free market Republicans going to essentially confiscate the Supercharger Network for Detroit? Are supposedly environmentalist Democrats going to squeeze out Tesla in favor of the makers of F-150s, Escalades, and Hemi Demons?

WetEV
Posts: 3159
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:52 am

DeeAgeaux wrote:I don't see that happening in the US but stranger things have happened. Are supposedly free market Republicans going to essentially confiscate the Supercharger Network for Detroit?
Like the supposedly free market Republicans are blocking Tesla from selling in Texas?
DeeAgeaux wrote:Are supposedly environmentalist Democrats going to squeeze out Tesla in favor of the makers of F-150s, Escalades, and Hemi Demons?

Like the supposedly environmentalist Democrats blocking Tesla from selling in Connecticut?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

palmermd
Posts: 2588
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:46 am

DeeAgeaux wrote: EA isn't giving anything away. Porsche is and paying EA the same rate any other company can.

Jaguar can give their IPace customers three years of free charging if they want to and pay the same rate to EA Porsche is paying.

Favorable pricing to VW companies or customers is strictly prohibited by the settlement VW made with U.S. Prosecutors in dieselgate and is being enforced by the US Judge that approved the settlement.
There is a big difference between me paying my wife for something and paying your wife for something. One of them actually costs our family something. Jaguar is paying vw's wife. Porsche is paying his own wife.
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


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GRA
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Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:40 pm

Six new sites have opened, for six this month and 96 total: Spokane Valley, WA (I-90 E. of Spokane); Bristow, OK (I-44, bet. Tulsa and OKC); Collinsville, IL (N. Jct, I-55/I-255, E. of St. Louis); Rocky Mount, NC (Jct. I-95/U.S. 64); Brunswick, GA (I-95); Ormond Beach, FL (Jct. I-95/S.R. 40).

The opening of Bristow makes the trip between STL and OKC easy, and along with Ardmore and Collinsville also means that you can drive with care from Chicago to DFW. Collinsville also opens up areas west of STL on I-70, and I-55 south towards Memphis, albeit well short of it. for now you have to swing over to Paducah, then take I-69/U.S. 51 etc. to Memphis.

Rocky Mount, Brunswick and Ormond Beach make it possible (although with a detour to Carlisle, Pennsyvlania, and maybe also to Orlando), to drive I-95 between NYC and W. Palm Beach. Once open, the QCs in Cocoa and Port St. Lucie, FL will make it easy to get all the way to Miami.

The only thing Spokane Valley connects up to at the moment is Missoula. They need the QCs in Ellensburg and/or Hermiston, and one in Ritzville or at least Moses Lake.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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