GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

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GRA

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https://www.greencarreports.com/new...-electric-car-fast-charging-prices-nationwide

This is a big deal, as eVgo's prices were much too high before, and their QC sessions too short for bigger battery cars. The new (long-term) prices get them into the same cents/mile ballpark as many ICEs, albeit still higher than most HEVs:
. . . On Thursday, the nation's largest fast-charging network announced a new, simplified, and lower pricing system to address the last of those three problems.

EVgo's new prices apply to its more than 1,000 sites nationwide, and cut rates both for one-time users and network members. . . .
IEVS article:
EVgo Slashes Fast-Charge Pricing
https://insideevs.com/evgo-slashes-fast-charge-pricing/

. . . There will be two options available: a new Pay As You Go rate and Membership. Both offer AC L2 charging for $1.50/hour, so the difference lies in DC fast charging.

The Pay As You Go doesn’t require anything in terms of session fees, monthly fees, etc. Depending on state, the prices are simply:

between $0.25 and $0.35 per minute
through June 2018, EVgo will offer a special promotional rate for chargers located in California of $0.20/minute
charging time has also been extended to 45 minutes

In case of Membership:

$9.99/month (acts as a pre-paid credit that is simply applied towards charging activity for that month)
between $0.18 and $0.21 per minute depending on charger location

through June 2018, EVgo will offer a special promotional rate for chargers located in California of $0.15/minute
charging time has also been extended to 45 minutes, and up to 60 minutes during off-peak hours (charges initiating between 8:00pm-5:59am).
. . .
The dropping of connection fees for PAYG is also very helpful. The main question is can they afford to do this and be profitable?
 
I have done the math and the cost on EvGo is about half of even a very efficient 45 MPG car, at least here in Southern California where gas nears $3.25 a gallon (sometimes higher, sometimes a little lower). Considering I can go about 90 miles off a charge on EvGo and it costs me about $4, I still would come out ahead.

As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh. Figure even if the new session fully charges a 2013 leaf, it will cost them around $2.50, at most in electricity costs and they would be making at least $6.75 for the charging session. Yeah, they definitely can make a profit, even factoring renting the space, etc.

I was grandfathered into their old $0.10/minute plan and given the amount of charging I do on their network, switching to their new $9.99/month plan saves me about $100 a year, even though the per minute costs are higher. This is because instead of them just getting the monthly fee and me getting nothing for it, I get it as a credit.

As for the short sessions, it just meant you had to start a new session right after the first, unless you are on one of the discount programs like the No Charge to Charge, there was no restriction about how often you could charge.
 
cmwade77 said:
As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
 
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
Indeed, that's the killer. Until we get cheap storage, demand charges will likely make QC'ing unprofitable at these prices. See e.g.
RMI and EVgo Report Reveals Utility Rate Structures to Support Fast Charging Growth
https://www.rmi.org/about/news-and-...rate-structures-support-fast-charging-growth/
RMI’s study found that, under certain electricity tariffs, current demand charges can make up as much as 90 percent of the monthly bill of operational public DC fast chargers, driving the cost of delivered electricity as high as $1.96 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) during summer months in some locations. These charges are nearly seven times as high as the current gasoline equivalent cost of $0.29/kWh, meaning it is difficult for DC Fast charging providers like EVgo to remain competitive with the costs of operating petroleum-fueled vehicles.
That's from last April and gas prices are higher now.

Re restarting a charge, as there was a fee ($7.95? $9.95?) each time you did that, it made the electricity far too expensive once they jacked the rate to $0.20/minute. Now, at a flat per minute rate and longer limits it's a much better deal. At the current California come-on PAYG price of $0.20/minute and 50kW QC, that's ($0.20/min) / (5/6 kWh/min) = $0.24/kWh from the wall, or about $0.27 - $0.28/kWh to the battery assuming no taper, so comparable to HEVs. At $0.25/min it's more expensive than a high-mpg HEV, and if it goes up to $0.35/min it's break-even with many conventional ICEs. $1.50/hr. for L2 is a decent price, a few cents/kWh less than QC:

Through June 30th, 2018, EVgo is offering a promotional rate at DC fast chargers in California. Customers on the Membership plan will pay only $0.15/minute for DC Fast charging, and customers on Pay As You Go will pay $0.20/minute. After June 30th, California pricing will match our other markets: Between $0.18-0.21/minute for members and $0.25-0.35/minute for Pay As You Go drivers. The monthly membership fee, session length and Level 2 rates will not change after the promotional period.
 
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
Indeed, that's the killer. Until we get cheap storage, demand charges will likely make QC'ing unprofitable at these prices. See e.g.
RMI and EVgo Report Reveals Utility Rate Structures to Support Fast Charging Growth
https://www.rmi.org/about/news-and-...rate-structures-support-fast-charging-growth/
RMI’s study found that, under certain electricity tariffs, current demand charges can make up as much as 90 percent of the monthly bill of operational public DC fast chargers, driving the cost of delivered electricity as high as $1.96 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) during summer months in some locations. These charges are nearly seven times as high as the current gasoline equivalent cost of $0.29/kWh, meaning it is difficult for DC Fast charging providers like EVgo to remain competitive with the costs of operating petroleum-fueled vehicles.
That's from last April and gas prices are higher now.

Re restarting a charge, as there was a fee ($7.95? $9.95?) each time you did that, it made the electricity far too expensive once they jacked the rate to $0.20/minute. Now, at a flat per minute rate and longer limits it's a much better deal. At the current California come-on PAYG price of $0.20/minute and 50kW QC, that's ($0.20/min) / (5/6 kWh/min) = $0.24/kWh from the wall, or about $0.27 - $0.28/kWh to the battery assuming no taper, so comparable to HEVs. At $0.25/min it's more expensive than a high-mpg HEV, and if it goes up to $0.35/min it's break-even with many conventional ICEs. $1.50/hr. for L2 is a decent price, a few cents/kWh less than QC:

Through June 30th, 2018, EVgo is offering a promotional rate at DC fast chargers in California. Customers on the Membership plan will pay only $0.15/minute for DC Fast charging, and customers on Pay As You Go will pay $0.20/minute. After June 30th, California pricing will match our other markets: Between $0.18-0.21/minute for members and $0.25-0.35/minute for Pay As You Go drivers. The monthly membership fee, session length and Level 2 rates will not change after the promotional period.
For me, gas equivalent cost is around $0.75/kwh (maybe a bit less now that gas has dropped a little bit, but no lower than $0.60/kwh) and that is with our other plug-in hybrid that gets around 45 MPG on pure gas. This doesn't factor in oil changes, etc. either.

The membership version of EvGo makes the cost around $0.30/kwh. As for demand charges, most of the locations I have seen around here avoid this by using Solar where possible. Alternatively there are now a few companies that are providing setups that use old EV batteries to store electricity when it is cheap and use that when electricity when it is expensive. But even so, many of the locations that have EvGo chargers installed have told me that they have been able to negotiate with the utility companies so that demand charges do not apply to the chargers. I'm sure there are locations where that doesn't work, but overall the majority, at least here in Southern California have been able to do so.

The big issue that EvGo is going to run up against are the fact that there are getting to be more and more free quick chargers being made available at various dealers, many of whom don't care what type of vehicle you have or where it was purchased. In addition, there are some free ones being setup at park and rides and other city and state owned locations. There are also companies like Mitsubishi that provide free quick charging after business hours at its headquarters in Cypress. Thanks to the free quick chargers that are available, I usually only use EvGo around twice a month when I can't get to one of these locations for various reasons. Now at twice a month, the $9.99 plan makes perfect sense for me, as it means I realistically will spend about $10 a month on charging, but it also means that EvGo isn't going to make a huge profit off of me.
 
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.
It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.
 
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.
It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.
I have and all of them I have spoken with say that they have been able to negotiate with their utility company to eliminate them for the EVSEs, as most utility companies in California are given mandates to be EV friendly.
 
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.
It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.
I have and all of them I have spoken with say that they have been able to negotiate with their utility company to eliminate them for the EVSEs, as most utility companies in California are given mandates to be EV friendly.
Color me skeptical, and I apologize in advance.

What companies are you talking about here ?
For a * 50 kWh* station, right ?
How did the company isolate the charging station from the overall consumption and power pattern ?
 
eVgo's already talking about going to 150kW base, and they're also building the one in Baker, CA with 4 x 350kW chargers (now supposed to open this month). They aren't going to duck demand charges on that one, although only Porsche's Mission-e will be able to use the full rate initially. They're going to need solar plus cheap storage. Solar is already part of it, but I don't recall seeing anything about storage. See: http://www.hybridcars.com/new-year-brings-ultra-fast-charging-us-highways/ for the state of things as of Jan. 2, 2018.
 
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.
I have and all of them I have spoken with say that they have been able to negotiate with their utility company to eliminate them for the EVSEs, as most utility companies in California are given mandates to be EV friendly.
Color me skeptical, and I apologize in advance.

What companies are you talking about here ?
For a * 50 kWh* station, right ?
How did the company isolate the charging station from the overall consumption and power pattern ?
Easy, they have them on separate power meters, not really that difficult to do.
 
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
I have and all of them I have spoken with say that they have been able to negotiate with their utility company to eliminate them for the EVSEs, as most utility companies in California are given mandates to be EV friendly.
Color me skeptical, and I apologize in advance.

What companies are you talking about here ?
For a * 50 kWh* station, right ?
How did the company isolate the charging station from the overall consumption and power pattern ?
Easy, they have them on separate power meters, not really that difficult to do.
Oh, I know it is done; it the cost to do so that interests me. Are you able to answer the questions ?
 
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
Color me skeptical, and I apologize in advance.

What companies are you talking about here ?
For a * 50 kWh* station, right ?
How did the company isolate the charging station from the overall consumption and power pattern ?
Easy, they have them on separate power meters, not really that difficult to do.
Oh, I know it is done; it the cost to do so that interests me. Are you able to answer the questions ?
The cost is highly dependent on the utility company and the location of the chargers vs. where the existing electrical service is. Some utility companies will add the additional meter free of charge, so it really doesn't add any extra costs. I believe SCE charges about $500 for the additional meter, so in the grand scheme of things not too overly expensive.
 
GRA said:
The dropping of connection fees for PAYG is also very helpful. The main question is can they afford to do this and be profitable?
Bumping this again. Also see article https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianblanco/2018/03/01/evgo-lower-price-dc-fast-charging-electric-vehicles/#1f2248f5f9bf.

If people weren't aware and had an EVgo membership, if you're still paying the $4.95 connection/session fee to start a DC FC session, you need to switch your plan ASAP.

On March 1, 2018, they came out with plans that have no monthly fee which don't have that any more. Problem is, they don't switch you over to it automatically. One person here (who's also on another forum w/me) wasn't aware of this. Another person on that other forum was also unaware.

It does seem borderline shady that they wouldn't automatically switch people over to a new plan as it makes no sense anyone would want to stick with that old plan. I did receive an email from them on 3/1/18 titled "New EVgo Pricing: Drive Farther and Pay Less!" It says:
Hi (my name),

Go farther for less money with EVgo’s all-new pricing!

The new Membership plan is only $9.99 / month:

Monthly fee becomes a CREDIT and covers your first $9.99 of charging every month
No session fees
$0.15 / min DC fast rate - now through June 30th, 2018*
45-minute charging sessions initiated between 6:00am and 7:59pm
60-minute charging sessions initiated between 8:00pm and 5:59am

We also have a new Pay As You Go rate for less frequent charging:

Only $0.20 / min DC fast rate - now through June 30th, 2018*
No session fees or monthly fee
45-minute charging sessions

Switch Now

If you'd prefer to keep your current Flex plan, no action is needed. Further questions? Please check out our FAQ.

Thank you for charging with us,

The EVgo Team
 
LeftieBiker said:
I have No Charge to Charge and have never paid a fee, although they may charge one if my session goes over 30 (or possibly 45 now) minutes.
Lucky you... unfortunately, I've never had NCTC. Didn't exist when I leased my 1st Leaf. My current owned used Leaf is 1 month older, so no NCTC either and this one doesn't have CHAdeMO.

So, far, I think I've never paid a fee on EVgo as I don't think I've ever used them.

Your free NCTC is only good for the first two years though...
 
After the first few months I largely stopped using mine anyway, because I'm concerned about the health of my crappy Nissan battery. My original intent was to use QC only when really needed for a trip, and I've returned to that philosophy. The paltry amount I'd save on charging isn't worth the risk of increased degradation.
 
LeftieBiker said:
After the first few months I largely stopped using mine anyway, because I'm concerned about the health of my crappy Nissan battery. My original intent was to use QC only when really needed for a trip, and I've returned to that philosophy. The paltry amount I'd save on charging isn't worth the risk of increased degradation.
Yeah, awhile ago when I'd brought my Leaf in for service (probably after Nov 2017 so after I was down 1 bar), the service advisor was surprised I was down only 1 bar. He's probably seen a huge variation and may be unaware of the 4/2013+ batteries being better. Anyway, he expected mine to be down more bars. He mentioned some customers ONLY DC FCing (probably because of NCTC and I'm guessing no free charging at work). Also, Pacific Gouge & Extort (my electric utility) isn't cheap.

I'm in (work and home) a hotter part of the SF Bay Area and I personally knew a guy with an '11 or '12 at work (he got let go) who was able to get to 8 bars before his 5 year/60K capacity warranty expired --> free battery. Another guy in the local SF BayLEAFs group I believe did, as well. Another guy in that group missed it.

I think he was only 3 bars down when his capacity warranty expired so he dumped his Leaf for a Clarity BEV. Nissan's goodwill program had already ended so they weren't willing to help him on the cost of a replacement.
 
It would probably be perfectly safe for my to QC in the Winter, but I really would only be doing it to save literally a few dollars, and I think my time is worth more than that.
 
SageBrush said:
cmwade77 said:
SageBrush said:
Color me skeptical, and I apologize in advance.

What companies are you talking about here ?
For a * 50 kWh* station, right ?
How did the company isolate the charging station from the overall consumption and power pattern ?
Easy, they have them on separate power meters, not really that difficult to do.
Oh, I know it is done; it the cost to do so that interests me. Are you able to answer the questions ?

Guess I didn't see this back in March. I work for the utility in San Diego, and I can tell you unequivocally that a utility regulated by the CPUC cannot suspend parts of their tariffs or drop demand charges just because they want to or a customer asks nicely.

Any changes to rates or tariffs have to be approved by the CPUC. No question that rate structures will be changing over the coming years, but all of those changes will either be because the CPUC ordered them, or the utility asked to do it and received permission...

If you have any questions about how rates work, I can usually answer or get answers....Thanks...
 
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