Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:55 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:43 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:46 am
danrjones wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:05 am
I second this list. When I took my leaf in for service a month ago, I needed to fast charge to get back home. The fast charger at my Nissan dealer is broken and they said they have no plan to fix it. So I went across the street and fast charged at a Honda Dealer. Now, I will say my dealer was nice and when they were not working on the car, plugged into a Lvl2 in their back lot to finish the charging for me. But still...
Can't speak for others, but the L2 charger at my dealership has 2 spots. 1 is always open. Never been broken. The other is sometimes filled by a dealer Leaf, but I'm sure they'd move it if I asked. Their layout was actually pretty good--the other charging location isn't technically a parking spot (it's part of a double-wide roundabout), so nobody would park there unless they're charging a Leaf. For that reason, the spot never gets ICEd.

Granted, I live in Missouri, not LA, where things are very different. We have a huge network of charging stations built by the local utility, and 80% of the spots are free at any given time. They're often ICEd, but it doesn't matter because there's still a spot. Only once in 2 years have I taken the last charging spot at any location.
After 2012, I never use L2 at dealerships. You do have it made as E. Kansas/MO is an oasis of charging. Our public utility despite having much greater resources is still dragging its feet limiting us to a handful of L2's at a few of its offices and free/discounted EVSEs...

They are getting into the game but the pace is ridiculously slow. They just started a charging monitoring program complete with reduced rates when you charge your EV.
I really wonder if L2 charging makes any sense at all for businesses, etc. It matters greatly for 24 kWh Leafs and other short-range EV's, but as battery prices continue to fall and cars approach 300 mile ranges at reasonable cost, I think we'll see two types of chargers:
1) Home/Apartment/Residence L1/L2 charging
2) L3 charging (for road trips)

I agree it's nice that we have a large amount of L2 charging spots in my area, but they don't seem financially viable, and once you have a 300+ mile range EV, who cares anyway? Just plug it in at home and let it charge up.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

WetEV
Posts: 4128
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:36 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:55 am
I really wonder if L2 charging makes any sense at all for businesses, etc. It matters greatly for 24 kWh Leafs and other short-range EV's, but as battery prices continue to fall and cars approach 300 mile ranges at reasonable cost, I think we'll see two types of chargers:
1) Home/Apartment/Residence L1/L2 charging
2) L3 charging (for road trips)
I mostly agree.

Add L2 for hotels. While traveling, one of the comforts of home.

Workplace L2 might replace a lot of home L1/L2. With the future grid having more solar, the daytime might be the best and cheapest time to charge.

Some business L2 does make sense. Disneyland. Casinos.

Remote locations.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

roger1818
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jun 2019
Leaf Number: 315029

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:19 am

WetEV wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:36 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:55 am
I really wonder if L2 charging makes any sense at all for businesses, etc. It matters greatly for 24 kWh Leafs and other short-range EV's, but as battery prices continue to fall and cars approach 300 mile ranges at reasonable cost, I think we'll see two types of chargers:
1) Home/Apartment/Residence L1/L2 charging
2) L3 charging (for road trips)
I mostly agree.

Add L2 for hotels. While traveling, one of the comforts of home.

Workplace L2 might replace a lot of home L1/L2. With the future grid having more solar, the daytime might be the best and cheapest time to charge.

Some business L2 does make sense. Disneyland. Casinos.

Remote locations.
I would generalize that and say any destination that people will stay at for more than an hour anyway, would do well with AC charging stations (L1/L2). This would include (in general order of priority):
  1. Where people live (houses, apartments and condos),
  2. Lodging (Hotels, motels, campgrounds, etc).
  3. Long term parking lots (airports, train stations, etc),
  4. Tourist destinations (museums, casinos, theme parks, national parks, etc.),
  5. Workplace parking (public, private or park & ride).
  6. Shipping Malls and Theatres
Not everyone can charge at home, so providing places that they can conveniently charge at an affordable rate will be important.

Places best served with DC Fast Chargers would be:
  • Rest stops,
  • Restaurants and coffee shops on or near highways,
As for your comment about solar power, that is very location dependant. That could be a factor those closer to equator than the poles, where solar is viable most of the year. Those closer to the poles than the equator, where solar is only viable less than half of the year, solar power may make up a small portion of the grid, but I can't see it being a major source of power.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:29 pm

roger1818 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:19 am
I would generalize that and say any destination that people will stay at for more than an hour anyway, would do well with AC charging stations (L1/L2).
Destination charging stations are expensive. If there's not significant demand and willingness to pay for their installation, they won't justify the price. The charging stations are often in excess of $5000 per plug, plus a maintenance agreement with Chargepoint, etc. to handle support, calls, billing, etc.

I don't see why it makes any sense to build out this infrastructure in most cases. In general, people will just charge at where they live (home, apartment, etc) and use L3 for long distance travel. I do see certain use cases, such as hotels, where L2 charging is likely to be common, but I'm not sure the cost will be justified for the other use cases, especially long-term parking lots such as at an airport, where the utilization of the charger will be extremely low (car charges initially, then sits for a week wasting the charger).

Self-driving will also impact this. A few spots will likely have automated charging ports that the cars will utilize, then go sit in a standard parking spot with no charging capability. I expect these charging spots will be level 3 chargers to reduce the number of charger installations required.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15298
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:33 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:55 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:43 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:46 am


Can't speak for others, but the L2 charger at my dealership has 2 spots. 1 is always open. Never been broken. The other is sometimes filled by a dealer Leaf, but I'm sure they'd move it if I asked. Their layout was actually pretty good--the other charging location isn't technically a parking spot (it's part of a double-wide roundabout), so nobody would park there unless they're charging a Leaf. For that reason, the spot never gets ICEd.

Granted, I live in Missouri, not LA, where things are very different. We have a huge network of charging stations built by the local utility, and 80% of the spots are free at any given time. They're often ICEd, but it doesn't matter because there's still a spot. Only once in 2 years have I taken the last charging spot at any location.
After 2012, I never use L2 at dealerships. You do have it made as E. Kansas/MO is an oasis of charging. Our public utility despite having much greater resources is still dragging its feet limiting us to a handful of L2's at a few of its offices and free/discounted EVSEs...

They are getting into the game but the pace is ridiculously slow. They just started a charging monitoring program complete with reduced rates when you charge your EV.
I really wonder if L2 charging makes any sense at all for businesses, etc. It matters greatly for 24 kWh Leafs and other short-range EV's, but as battery prices continue to fall and cars approach 300 mile ranges at reasonable cost, I think we'll see two types of chargers:
1) Home/Apartment/Residence L1/L2 charging
2) L3 charging (for road trips)

I agree it's nice that we have a large amount of L2 charging spots in my area, but they don't seem financially viable, and once you have a 300+ mile range EV, who cares anyway? Just plug it in at home and let it charge up.
Spoken like a true homeowner. :roll:

It is this myopic view that has hampered us for a decade now. "Make sure those DC's are out there to cover me when I need to go somewhere" views that have slowed adoption of EVs.

If you want widespread adoption, you need to provide widespread support. Its pretty basic stuff here.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:39 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:33 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:55 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:43 am


After 2012, I never use L2 at dealerships. You do have it made as E. Kansas/MO is an oasis of charging. Our public utility despite having much greater resources is still dragging its feet limiting us to a handful of L2's at a few of its offices and free/discounted EVSEs...

They are getting into the game but the pace is ridiculously slow. They just started a charging monitoring program complete with reduced rates when you charge your EV.
I really wonder if L2 charging makes any sense at all for businesses, etc. It matters greatly for 24 kWh Leafs and other short-range EV's, but as battery prices continue to fall and cars approach 300 mile ranges at reasonable cost, I think we'll see two types of chargers:
1) Home/Apartment/Residence L1/L2 charging
2) L3 charging (for road trips)

I agree it's nice that we have a large amount of L2 charging spots in my area, but they don't seem financially viable, and once you have a 300+ mile range EV, who cares anyway? Just plug it in at home and let it charge up.
Spoken like a true homeowner. :roll:

It is this myopic view that has hampered us for a decade now. "Make sure those DC's are out there to cover me when I need to go somewhere" views that have slowed adoption of EVs.

If you want widespread adoption, you need to provide widespread support. Its pretty basic stuff here.
Why a homeowner? I included apartments and residences in #1. Once you have that, I really don't understand destination L2 charging in most cases.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15298
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:39 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:33 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:55 am


I really wonder if L2 charging makes any sense at all for businesses, etc. It matters greatly for 24 kWh Leafs and other short-range EV's, but as battery prices continue to fall and cars approach 300 mile ranges at reasonable cost, I think we'll see two types of chargers:
1) Home/Apartment/Residence L1/L2 charging
2) L3 charging (for road trips)

I agree it's nice that we have a large amount of L2 charging spots in my area, but they don't seem financially viable, and once you have a 300+ mile range EV, who cares anyway? Just plug it in at home and let it charge up.
Spoken like a true homeowner. :roll:

It is this myopic view that has hampered us for a decade now. "Make sure those DC's are out there to cover me when I need to go somewhere" views that have slowed adoption of EVs.

If you want widespread adoption, you need to provide widespread support. Its pretty basic stuff here.
Why a homeowner? I included apartments and residences in #1. Once you have that, I really don't understand destination L2 charging in most cases.
This is like having a conversation with Climate naysayers. I have to continuously repeat points made here thousands of times every inch of the way and their response is always "I included everything that is important to me so what else is there to discuss?"

How about we get back to my statement that if you want widespread adoption, you must provide widespread access and options?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PrairieLEAF
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:58 am
Delivery Date: 04 Feb 2019
Location: Weld County, Colorado

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:21 am

Wow--after reading this thread so far, I have to say I've been very happy with my public charging experiences in Colorado. I haven't been to a Nissan dealership, though. :) I do rely on pre-research on Plugshare.

Interestingly, the two road trips I've taken in the year I've had the LEAF have not used any quick-charging--only free L2. Although the overall drive times would have been much shorter with L3, I prefer the L2 experience--I've always felt that a great detriment to most of our travels is that we experience practically nothing along the way. I love how L2 charging encourages (or forces) us to get on our feet in different places and see things we missed all the previous times that we stopped only for a few minutes. Previous road trips left me feeling numb, sore, exhausted, and yearning only for the destination. On L2 travels, I feel alert, adventurous, comfortable, and ready for more.

I've only used L3 for quick boosts on day-trips, and all the L3 stations I've visited have CHAdeMO.

In Colorado, free membership cards for ChargePoint and EVGo have taken me everywhere I've wanted to go.
2016 LEAF S-30 w/QC "Lexie"

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 am
How about we get back to my statement that if you want widespread adoption, you must provide widespread access and options?
My assertion was, and remains, that if you have sufficiently long range evs, widespread charging access at residences and hotels and fast charging access for long trips, the problem is solved. I don't believe you need widespread deployment of destination L2 chargers for widespread EV adoption.

We already saw this. Early on, Tesla toured Google's facilities and found nearly no Teslas plugged in at work. They assumed that Googlers weren't interested in Teslas, and inquired about it. They found out that there were lots of Teslas owned by Googlers, but they saw basically no reason to go through the work to plug them in at work. They simply found only charging at night where they lived was more convenient. The Teslas were often found parked in the parking lot with the ICE's, not in the EV parking spots.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15298
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:45 am

PrairieLEAF wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:21 am
Wow--after reading this thread so far, I have to say I've been very happy with my public charging experiences in Colorado. I haven't been to a Nissan dealership, though. :) I do rely on pre-research on Plugshare.

Interestingly, the two road trips I've taken in the year I've had the LEAF have not used any quick-charging--only free L2. Although the overall drive times would have been much shorter with L3, I prefer the L2 experience--I've always felt that a great detriment to most of our travels is that we experience practically nothing along the way. I love how L2 charging encourages (or forces) us to get on our feet in different places and see things we missed all the previous times that we stopped only for a few minutes. Previous road trips left me feeling numb, sore, exhausted, and yearning only for the destination. On L2 travels, I feel alert, adventurous, comfortable, and ready for more.

I've only used L3 for quick boosts on day-trips, and all the L3 stations I've visited have CHAdeMO.

In Colorado, free membership cards for ChargePoint and EVGo have taken me everywhere I've wanted to go.
EVGO is free in Colorado?

But you make a VERY good point that doesn't seem to fall into the "#1 or #2" categories listed above. I also enjoy charging stops including chances to explore "drive past" locations. It has been quite eye opening discovering new places in my region that have existed for years w/o my knowledge.

But your statement of "yearning only for the destination" really hit home with me. My last long road trip in a gasser was driving my Dad's Prius from South Texas (about 3 miles from the Rio Grande) to Olympia was done in 4 days but only because the last 1½ days, I no longer cared how far I got that day. I was so tired of driving and with a 5-10 min fill up, there was little excuse to stop and that was a HUGE mistake. I didn't have a real strict timeline and drove past a LOT of things I now wish I had stopped to investigate.

Since it was just me and the dog (who got me thrown out of SEVERAL restaurants) I started the trip only doing drive thrus and ended it with going in every place even McDonalds for a large cup of $1 coffee.

But there is an upside to eliminating destination charging stations; No longer will I have to endure posts about Volts and Priuses using "our" plugs. ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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