DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:31 am

johnlocke wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:21 am
Who it not be easier to collect fees on the backend? This is a common practice. In some of the apartments I lived, having assigned covered parking, access to gym, storage, etc. was extra billed on the rent. This would be the easiest especially since RFID cards are so cheap and easy to make these days.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 92.44% SOH
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PrairieLEAF
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Location: Weld County, Colorado

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:56 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:21 am

EVGO is free in Colorado?
No, sorry, I was referring to the free (rather than monthly subscription) EVGo membership. I saw one EVGo L3 on PlugShare that may possibly be free (upscale grocery host).

Glad to hear that not everyone's only out for the destination. *Cue Aerosmith's "Amazing"*
2016 LEAF S-30 w/QC "Lexie"

roger1818
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:47 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:21 am
As a former landlord, I can tell you that as soon as the charging companies give a cut of the action to the landlord, you'll see charging stations stations in the parking lots. It's like a coin op laundry in the building. The charging company pays for the installation and provides the chargers. They pay the landlord for the electricity and a cut of the profits. The landlord gets a perk for the tenants and makes some money.
The key is building a business case. Yes landlords get a cut of the coin op laundry, but they also realize that not having on site laundry facilities will make it harder to rent units, as it has become an expected facility. We aren't there yet with EVs as most perspective tenants don't need a charging station.

Also, most buildings were built with infrastructure in place for a laundry room (the room was plumed and wired during construction), so it makes it much cheaper to install the machines (you just plug them in and connect the hoses). With charging stations, the electrical infrastructure isn't there yet, so someone will have to pay for that.

The other factor is a few laundry machines are shared by many tenants, so their cost is amortized amongst many users. It is harder to have communal charging stations as tenants are less likely to want to have to move their car once it has finished charging (especially if it is in the middle of the night), so the expectation would be to have their own, dedicated charging station. Also, due to longer charging times and more frequent charging, they may need more charging stations on a per user basis. Due to lack of space for communal charging stations, they may end up needing to go with more expensive DC Fast chargers.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

LeftieBiker
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:10 pm

The best solution to the above issues, IMO, is a dedicated 20-30 amp parking area outlet for x percent of apartments, with maybe a cheap, hardwired L-2 EVSE thrown in as a perk.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

roger1818
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:05 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:10 pm
The best solution to the above issues, IMO, is a dedicated 20-30 amp parking area outlet for x percent of apartments, with maybe a cheap, hardwired L-2 EVSE thrown in as a perk.
While the number of circuits needed for EVs is low, this could work, as they could be added to an existing electrical panel. It does create a risk of tenants creating a cheater plug that will draw more current than the circuit is designed for (it might trip the breaker, but that also creates more work or the superintendent). It also makes it more difficult to monitor and control the amount of electricity a tenant uses.

As the demand for EV charging grows, they will need a new, significantly larger panel, likely with a new connection to the grid. This would be very expensive and it would likely be cheaper to provide EVSEs so that multiple stations can be shared on one breaker, allowing them to significantly reduce the size and capacity of the panel and the connection to the grid. This would then allow them to have different charging packages, that will throttle the charge at different rates, depending on the tenant's needs and what they are willing to pay for (similar to what ISPs do). The installation and management of this would likely be subcontracted to a third party.
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roger1818
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:45 pm

Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:29 pm
I don't see why it makes any sense to build out this infrastructure in most cases. In general, people will just charge at where they live (home, apartment, etc) and use L3 for long distance travel. I do see certain use cases, such as hotels, where L2 charging is likely to be common, but I'm not sure the cost will be justified for the other use cases, especially long-term parking lots such as at an airport, where the utilization of the charger will be extremely low (car charges initially, then sits for a week wasting the charger).
I have been thinking more about this, and I think that is very location dependant. For airports (and train stations) in the sunny south, you may be correct, but here in the great white north, things are a bit different.

For those not familiar, according to the 2019 Leaf Owners manual (pg. EV-5):
LI-ION BATTERY WARMER (IF SO EQUIPPED)
! CAUTION
The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 15% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -1°F (-17°C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger.

The Li-ion battery warmer helps to prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing and helps to prevent significant reductions in the Li-ion battery output when the temperature is cold. The Li-ion battery warmer automatically turns on when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately -1°F (-17°C) or colder. The Li-ion battery warmer automatically turns off when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately 14°F (-10°C) or higher.
Now from what I have read, the battery warmer only uses about 300W of electricity, but if it needed to run continuously, that would be over 7kW per day. Given a 5 day cold streak (not unheard of), you could be down 28kW just from keeping the battery warm. When you factor in a 40% reduction in range in winter, that could be problematic. Even worse, if it drops you down below 15% SOC, your car could be bricked until it warms up or you can plug it in.

Even a 6A (700W) trickle charger would be enough to prevent that from happening and would still give you a bit of a charge. They could give everyone a 120V 15A outlet, but that is a lot less convenient (especially in cold weather) and it would require them to have double the number of circuits, which costs money. Providing charging stations rather than just an outlet, allows them to better monitor and manage the power output.

An interesting alternative would be to have small V2G chargers. Since for long term storage, it is best to keep your vehicle between 30 & 50% SOC, they could drain your battery down to that range when they need the power, and keep it in that range. You could program in your return flight information (or better yet booking reference in case your itinerary changes) and they could then ensure your vehicle is charged back up to your desired level (ex. 80% or 100%) when you return.

One way or another, long-term parking lots in cold climates need to have a method of charging.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

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jlv
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:19 pm

roger1818 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:45 pm
One way or another, long-term parking lots in cold climates need to have a method of charging.
A plain old 120V/15A output, to provide level 1 / trickle charge level 1.

In 2-3 days you car is fully charged, and then it provides enough power for the battery warmer. I think the cost of extra circuits is a wash compared to the cost of the EVSEs (*) and in the long time, the outlets will be less of a maintenance issue than EVSEs.

(*) at work we put in 20 EVSEs on 40A circuits. The facilities guy showed me the cost breakdown and it individual circuits were the primary cost, compared to the $800 clipper creek units.
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roger1818
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:36 pm

jlv wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:19 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:45 pm
One way or another, long-term parking lots in cold climates need to have a method of charging.
Trickle charge level 1 (120V/15A).
In 2-3 days you car is fully charged, and then it provides enough power for the battery warmer.
To get 15A continuous, you would need a 20A circuit (you could actually get 16A). The maximum continuous current off of a 15A circuit is 12A. My suggestion is 6A charging stations would be adequate for a long-term parking, and would allow 2 charging stations (or one double station) per 15A circuit. It would probably take 4-6 days to get a full charge if empty though and still provide enough power for the battery warmer.
A level 2 EVSE is a silly waste.
Agreed. That is why I suggested a 120V/6A 700W (i.e. 0.7kW) Trickle charger in my previous post.

They could possibly have different powers of charging stations at different daily rates for people to choose from, based on their needs (it would be one way to charge a premium for the best spots).
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jlv
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:07 am

A "plain old" 15A circuit, charging at at 12A.
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roger1818
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Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:03 pm

It looks like you modified your post after I started to reply to it. Here is my response to your modifications:
jlv wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:19 pm
I think the cost of extra circuits is a wash compared to the cost of the EVSEs (*) and in the long time, the outlets will be less of a maintenance issue than EVSEs.

(*) at work we put in 20 EVSEs on 40A circuits. The facilities guy showed me the cost breakdown and it individual circuits were the primary cost, compared to the $800 clipper creek units.
As production volume increases, the cost of EVSEs will go down. OTOH, the new circuit panel(s) required to add hundreds of circuits (and all of the wiring that goes with it) is a mature technology and the cost won't go down.

NOTE: I am not talking about today, when, when less than 1% of vehicles on the road are BEVs, but in a decade or so, when the majority of vehicles are BEVs.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

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