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dgpcolorado
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:35 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:55 am
Remember back when we were all taken aback by 70 cents a kWh in Europe at the Ionity chargers ?
Slow charging EVs like the LEAF are not much cheaper

One silver lining though: people are going to learn to not charge much past a SoC of 60% if they do not need the charge to reach their next charging stop.
Yes. For those who don't have home charging, it also acts as an incentive to find and use cheaper L2 charging.

Educating new EV road trippers to charge only enough to make the next stop, plus a reasonable buffer for something unexpected, such as a strong headwind, is going to be a long process. The ICE mentality of "fill it up" at fuel stops is going to be hard to break for many.
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:50 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:35 pm

<Snip>

Educating new EV road trippers to charge only enough to make the next stop, plus a reasonable buffer for something unexpected, such as a strong headwind, is going to be a long process. The ICE mentality of "fill it up" at fuel stops is going to be hard to break for many.

Of course, until the charging station density and their reliability radically improve, 'a reasonable buffer' may require an extra 70-120 miles worth of charge. If you're also unwilling to deplete your battery below say 20% SoC except in emergencies for longevity reasons, then as a practical matter you're limited to a maximum of just 60% (QC to 80%, reserve of 20%) of whatever the battery's usable capacity/range is at that time, before any allowance for conditions.

A nominal 200 mile HWY BEV thus has at best just 120 miles of usable range between QCs, considerably less after allowances. Subtract any degradation and you need to charge well over 80% of the remaining usable capacity, and you can forget keeping 'a reasonable buffer' to get you to the next station in most rural areas, given their current spacing.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:35 pm

GRA wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:50 pm
dgpcolorado wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:35 pm

<Snip>

Educating new EV road trippers to charge only enough to make the next stop, plus a reasonable buffer for something unexpected, such as a strong headwind, is going to be a long process. The ICE mentality of "fill it up" at fuel stops is going to be hard to break for many.

Of course, until the charging station density and their reliability radically improve, 'a reasonable buffer' may require an extra 70-120 miles worth of charge. If you're also unwilling to deplete your battery below say 20% SoC except in emergencies for longevity reasons, then as a practical matter you're limited to a maximum of just 60% (QC to 80%, reserve of 20%) of whatever the battery's usable capacity/range is at that time, before any allowance for conditions.

A nominal 200 mile HWY BEV thus has at best just 120 miles of usable range between QCs, considerably less after allowances. Subtract any degradation and you need to charge well over 80% of the remaining usable capacity, and you can forget keeping 'a reasonable buffer' to get you to the next station in most rural areas, given their current spacing.
While I agree that 200 EPA is too little for easy road trips I've been doing them successfully with much less (my car has been at 178 EPA rated miles for the last several years and I have no trouble with 6000 mile road trips). A lot depends on the nav software (does it estimate battery percentage at destination in real time and is it reliable?) and driver experience. Tesla has had reliable nav software for years; how that will shake out for VW, GM, BMW, Ford and all the rest remains to be seen.

Once cars are routinely above 300 miles EPA range, road trips become really easy. Once DCFC is almost as ubiquitous as gas stations, road trips will be easy. The former is pretty much here but the latter will take some time.

Your assumption of 20% as a lower limit to preserve the battery isn't reasonable. Occasionally going down to 5% or so is no big deal, as is charging to 100% just before setting out on a trip. Setting artificial limits on battery use to limit usable range is not reasonable for road trips. That's simply not how it works (nor should it). Keeping the battery in that 20% to 80% temperate zone for local driving is fine. So is using the whole battery on occasion when needed, so long as it isn't left at high or low charge.
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:16 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:35 pm

<Snip>

Your assumption of 20% as a lower limit to preserve the battery isn't reasonable. Occasionally going down to 5% or so is no big deal, as is charging to 100% just before setting out on a trip. Setting artificial limits on battery use to limit usable range is not reasonable for road trips. That's simply not how it works (nor should it). Keeping the battery in that 20% to 80% temperate zone for local driving is fine. So is using the whole battery on occasion when needed, so long as it isn't left at high or low charge.

I'm not aware of any Li-ion chemistry that is comfortable being depleted semi-routinely to 5%, although you can of course do so if you choose. But that implies what is to me an inadequate reserve: 5% of 178 is only 8.9 miles. Personally, I want a soft reserve of 20%, and a hard reserve of the greater of 15% or 30 miles. That latter number has long been used by CR as a reserve when calculating a car's range, but is often wholly inadequate for BEVs given the current spacing of stations.

Perhaps our different attitude to what we're willing to do to a battery depends on a different attitude towards a car's expected usable lifetime. For me, that's >= 15 years.

As to what range is adequate on trips, you're retired and thus can afford to spend more time enroute. Even if that weren't the case, I suspect you possess far more patience than I do. :lol: And while your S60's range is far too limited for me, it does at least charge considerably faster than the Bolt I drove across the Sierra and back, including having to spend over an hour gnashing my teeth in a Walmart parking lot while it charged from 77 to 100%. Given better charging site locations, closer spacing and more reliability of charging I wouldn't have had to do that, but lacking all of the above on that trip, especially the latter, it proved to be essential that I did so.

All that being said, I don't think 300 EPA miles will be enough for the general public, because in their mind those miles come with a whole host of understood conditions common to ICEs, most of which don't now, and in some cases may never apply to BEVs. For example, to provide a practical range for the life of a BEV roughly comparable to a "300 mile" (HWY+ reserve) ICE, the BEV would need something around 700 miles of range. This is based on the following, and only covers 8 rather than 15 years, as that's the longest capacity warranty currently offered): 700 x .7 (degradation) = 490 x .6 = 294 miles. Note I'm not including any allowance for HVAC use or adverse conditions, all of which are included in the ICE's "300 mile + reserve" range.

To me, the above calc indicates that the most important factors in an improved battery are reducing degradation over time, and also allowing a wider SoC range to be used without hastening degradation. Failing that, battery leasing.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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salyavin
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:17 pm

I am always surprised to find how many people here in Colorado do very limited or no road trips even near me in a somewhat "well off" area. Some don't want to go more than 15 minutes to go shopping as well. While some go skiing 200 miles covers that, I myself take the LEAF plus up to breckenridge and camp and leadville etc. without charging (arriving not going and returning). In my case I have done three charge trips and I am find with that the main problem the LEAF has the heat which kills the charge rate sometimes in the 2nd and certainly the third in the summer. The Bolt, a guy I am friendly with has he takes to Yellowstone or various other multistate trips. It works with careful planning. To me 200 was always the magic number for road trips. more is always better and gives you more chances should a DCFC be down or gives you access to other areas easier. I really think range anxiety for the vast majority of people is in their head especially when you have 200 mile batteries. Yes there are places that are very hard to get to (finding an RV outlet or other pain in the rearstuff or nothing at all) like a lot of Wyoming but not everyone goes there. Building DCFC every 70 to 100 miles as Colorado is working on is great. L2 at stores, workplaces, state parks (Chatfield, Staunton etc.), are a great help to people without home charging. How far do you think people commute or drive regularly that 300 is not enough. I seriously do not buy it other than some misunderstanding in peoples heads leading to range anxiety. Drive from Colorarado Springs to DTC and back no problem then charge at home overnight. I drive from very south Denver almost Castle Rock to Fort Collins to visit family and back on one charge even when snowing in a plus.

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:52 pm

ChargePoint CCS/Chademo charging has opened in Steamboat Springs, Del Norte, and Fairplay. Prices are all over the map:

Del Norte, one stall (another coming? Says power is shared, also "power reduced"), Cost: "free"

Fairplay
, two stalls at the Fairplay Visitor's Center, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

Steamboat Springs, two stalls at Kum & Go, 20¢/kWh

Montrose, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

Pagosa Springs, two stalls, 30¢/kWh

Salida, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 20¢/minute

Buena Vista, one stall, 54.6¢/kWh from 10 PM to 4 PM, $1.329/kWh from 4 PM to 10 PM

Colorado Springs, one stall CCS only, free

Grand Junction, one stall at a Stop N Save, 25¢/kWh plus 10¢/min from 5 AM to 11 PM

Dinosaur, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

Meeker, one stall, 25¢/kWh

Carbondale, one stall, 14¢/kWh

Basalt, one stall, free

Crested Butte, one stall, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

Gypsum, two stalls at Eagle County Airport, 10¢/kWh

Eagle, one stall at the park and ride, 10¢/kWh

Edwards, one stall, 24¢/kWh from 12 AM to 4 PM, 75¢/kWh from 4 PM to 9 PM, free from 9 PM to 12 AM

Avon, one stall, free


As always: YMMV.
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:06 pm

I have a lot of relatives in Del Norte. Sounds like an excuse for a road trip.
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:56 pm

Just to avoid any confusion, while dgp's list are all Chargepoint stations, only the ones I've marked with an asterisk (think I got them all) are one of the of the state's 34 sites in their 6 electric vehicle fast charging corridors. The rest are independent of that, albeit useful, mainly off-interstate rural sites as many are.
dgpcolorado wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:52 pm
ChargePoint CCS/Chademo charging has opened in Steamboat Springs, Del Norte, and Fairplay. Prices are all over the map:

Del Norte, one stall (another coming? Says power is shared, also "power reduced"), Cost: "free"

Fairplay
, two stalls at the Fairplay Visitor's Center, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

*Steamboat Springs, two stalls at Kum & Go, 20¢/kWh

*Montrose, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

*Pagosa Springs, two stalls, 30¢/kWh

*Salida, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 20¢/minute

Buena Vista, one stall, 54.6¢/kWh from 10 PM to 4 PM, $1.329/kWh from 4 PM to 10 PM

Colorado Springs, one stall CCS only, free

Grand Junction, one stall at a Stop N Save, 25¢/kWh plus 10¢/min from 5 AM to 11 PM

*Dinosaur, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

Meeker, one stall, 25¢/kWh

Carbondale, one stall, 14¢/kWh

Basalt, one stall, free

Crested Butte, one stall, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute

Gypsum, two stalls at Eagle County Airport, 10¢/kWh

Eagle, one stall at the park and ride, 10¢/kWh

Edwards, one stall, 24¢/kWh from 12 AM to 4 PM, 75¢/kWh from 4 PM to 9 PM, free from 9 PM to 12 AM

Avon, one stall, free


As always: YMMV.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:26 am

GRA wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:56 pm
Just to avoid any confusion, while dgp's list are all Chargepoint stations, only the ones I've marked with an asterisk (think I got them all) are one of the of the state's 34 sites in their 6 electric vehicle fast charging corridors. The rest are independent of that, albeit useful, mainly off-interstate rural sites as many are...
I believe that you are right about those but it is possible that some of the ones you marked were placed independent of the state charging corridors project (I don't care to research them since it really doesn't matter much). I do know that the Montrose station is part of the state project and it is marked as such on one of the stalls.

Given that two ChargePoint stalls per site doesn't allow much redundancy, the more locations the better in the remote areas of the state. If a driver gets to Dinosaur and the two stalls are down, it could be a long day scrambling for "plan B"!
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Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:43 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:26 am
GRA wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:56 pm
Just to avoid any confusion, while dgp's list are all Chargepoint stations, only the ones I've marked with an asterisk (think I got them all) are one of the of the state's 34 sites in their 6 electric vehicle fast charging corridors. The rest are independent of that, albeit useful, mainly off-interstate rural sites as many are...
I believe that you are right about those but it is possible that some of the ones you marked were placed independent of the state charging corridors project (I don't care to research them since it really doesn't matter much). I do know that the Montrose station is part of the state project and it is marked as such on one of the stalls.

Given that two ChargePoint stalls per site doesn't allow much redundancy, the more locations the better in the remote areas of the state. If a driver gets to Dinosaur and the two stalls are down, it could be a long day scrambling for "plan B"!
Some of the state-financed sites have also been moved, e.g. Conifer is now apparently going to be in Indian Hills, while the state site which was to be in Silverton has apparently been split into two, at Ouray and Purgatory Resort instead. I thought Silverton was a good choice, located in between high passes both north and south of it, but the new sites are spaced better and on both north and south sides of the group of three passes. This splitting into two may be why the total # of state sites increased from 33 to 34.

One indication that the site is possibly state-financed is that they all have (at least) two CCS/CHAdeMO chargers, and IIRC the sites had to have the necessary electrical capacity to double the number of chargers if/when needed.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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