LEAFfan
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Re: warning in the manual

Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:54 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Um, aren't ALL outlets powered by generators?
Um, no. Mine and a lot of others are powered by the sun. Can you say PVs?
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TomT
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Re: charging on generator

Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:54 am

In terms of MPG, maybe. In terms of emissions, definitely not.
jkirkebo wrote:I will periodically charge my Leaf from a Honda EU65is generator. This is because I have no power lines to my cabin in the mountains. I can get there by fast chargers, but have to get a full charge before returning to the fast charger. The trip is ~400 miles and I will use about 4 gallons for a full charge (I think...), giving me 100mpg. I think this is better tham using the 45mpg VW Touran 2.0TDI we also have.
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TomT
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Re: warning in the manual

Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:55 am

Actually, unless you are totally off the grid and battery based, you ARE locked to a generator and using one...
LEAFfan wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:Um, aren't ALL outlets powered by generators?
Um, no. Mine and a lot of others are powered by the sun. Can you say PVs?
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jkirkebo
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Re: charging on generator

Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:49 pm

TomT wrote:In terms of MPG, maybe. In terms of emissions, definitely not.
jkirkebo wrote:I will periodically charge my Leaf from a Honda EU65is generator. This is because I have no power lines to my cabin in the mountains. I can get there by fast chargers, but have to get a full charge before returning to the fast charger. The trip is ~400 miles and I will use about 4 gallons for a full charge (I think...), giving me 100mpg. I think this is better tham using the 45mpg VW Touran 2.0TDI we also have.
Well, the generator is a petrol one, inverter based, Honda GX390 motor, running at 55% load. The Touran is a diesel without particulate filter. So it really depends on which type of emissions one care about. For sure there will be more particulates (soot) and CO2 with the Touran.

This is temporary anyway, until we get more fast chargers, closer to my location. They are coming.

GroundLoop
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Re: charging on generator

Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:08 am

Be carefully connecting that generator (EU2000i) Neutral to Ground to appease the EVSE.
My understanding is that the generator's inverter puts out two out-of-phase waves on the Neutral and Hot.

That is 60V AC RMS on each, out of phase to make 120v power.

The typical residential outlet is "split phase" with Neutral grounded at the panel, and 120v on the Hot. (or 240v between two phases, of course).

If you connect Neutral to Ground on the generator, the entire generator frame will carry 60V AC relative to earth ground. I don't know if the EU2000i insulates this well, or if 'ground' is exposed. Likewise for the car, which would now also be hot versus earth ground.

Can anyone confirm?
This seems like a significant hazard if it's true.

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Ingineer
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Re: charging on generator

Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:05 am

GroundLoop wrote:Be carefully connecting that generator (EU2000i) Neutral to Ground to appease the EVSE.
My understanding is that the generator's inverter puts out two out-of-phase waves on the Neutral and Hot.

That is 60V AC RMS on each, out of phase to make 120v power.

The typical residential outlet is "split phase" with Neutral grounded at the panel, and 120v on the Hot. (or 240v between two phases, of course).

If you connect Neutral to Ground on the generator, the entire generator frame will carry 60V AC relative to earth ground. I don't know if the EU2000i insulates this well, or if 'ground' is exposed. Likewise for the car, which would now also be hot versus earth ground.

Can anyone confirm?
This seems like a significant hazard if it's true.
There is no current path. Your assertion that there is 60V AC "relative" to earth ground would require an earth ground somewhere. You would have to drive a ground rod and connect it to the generator DC side to effect this. The generator works by generating 3-phase AC in an alternator and rectifying it with a 6 diode bridge, then the resulting DC is filto use in a high frequency H-bridge used to generate 60hz sine wave via PWM. The "center" or average of the generator windings is indeed at +/- 60v, but since it's not connected to anything and it's isolated, there is no potential. In the event of an alternator winding insulation failure short to chassis, there would be current flow if you had neutral to chassis bond connected, and the generator would overload. If you didn't have a ground connection bonded, you'd be blissfully unaware of the fault, so one might argue it's actually safer to make the bond.

I can confirm that the AC output on the EU2000i is isolated from it's ground screw and frame ground. Bonding either AC leg to generator ground will present no problems, as the new "reference" is then the generator frame and the car body itself. There will be no current flow to/from earth ground, as there is no connection to it.

Funny that we are discussing a non-existent ground loop and that's your forum handle! =)

-Phil
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hill
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Re: charging on generator

Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:33 pm

It's been over 2 months, since this generator thread was touched. Mean while, I began to wonder something after our last camping trip back in October. I observed a couple motor homes that had daisy chained a couple 3k generator/inverters together. so they could run more stuff, simultaneously (microwave, hair dryer, heaters). That made me wonder ... using Phil's modified J1772 portable charge cord, could one run two 120v generator sources back into a quick 220 appliance so that you could Leaf-charge quicker?

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Re: charging on generator

Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:38 pm

Only if they are designed to be phase locked together. Some of the solar inverters are designed that way, but I have never seen 120 volt generators capable of locking their 60 Hz 180* out of phase with another generator to make 240 VAC. Maybe inverter-type generators, like the Honda highend line, but not anything otherwise.
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jkirkebo
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Re: charging on generator

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:29 pm

I can at least verify that the Leaf (with EVSEupgrade EVSE or european 10A EVSE) charges beautifully from a 230V european Honda EU65is. The generator had no problems charging the Leaf and my cabin batteries at the same time, for a total of 5.3kW continously over some hours. I did have to turn off eco throttle when charging both at the same time, with just the Leaf it worked with eco throttle on too.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: charging on generator

Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:59 pm

Hopefully someone like ingineer would weigh in on this, but I think there are two types of generators, ones that run at a constant RPM (3600? or 1800 for diesels?) to produce the 60hz frequency, and others that use the magic of inverters to allow the engine to run at variable speeds. I have a honda 5000w like construction workers use that falls into the former category, while the EU2000 and 3000 most of you are talking about is the inverter type. Don't the constant RPM generators put out a regular sine wave as they are like miniature power plants, while the inverter types only approximate a sine wave?
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