EVSE Installation, Info and Cost Comparison Thread

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EVDRIVER

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Apr 24, 2010
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I am starting this thread as a place to post any info on EVSE installation costs, parts, etc. This will be a good way to get ideas of what people are being charged and what info is being communicated.
 
I'm not sure about some of these UL excuses, from the conversations with PGE some of them seem to hint at other possible political reasons. I may need to call my local city and ask them why they are so inflexible to EV owners.
 
I imagine dual meters may be problematic for municipalities when used in "in-law apartment" situations. Both from enabling living arrangements that may violate ordinances, and in situations where disputes arise between the 2 parties, payments aren't made, service is disconnected, etc...

The first wave of owners are going to be blazing the trail. Hopefully once a critical mass is reached, the utilities will take more reasonable steps to accomodate. It will serve them well to make off-peak charging as attractive and as hassle-free as possible. The same applies at the legislative level. Off-peak charing is important for maximizing the benefit of the new technology in terms of existing infrastructure. It would be folly to have TOU be so unattractive that we start experiencing capacity problems early into the wide adoption of EVs.
 
Nubo said:
I imagine dual meters may be problematic for municipalities when used in "in-law apartment" situations. Both from enabling living arrangements that may violate ordinances, and in situations where disputes arise between the 2 parties, payments aren't made, service is disconnected, etc...

The first wave of owners are going to be blazing the trail. Hopefully once a critical mass is reached, the utilities will take more reasonable steps to accomodate. It will serve them well to make off-peak charging as attractive and as hassle-free as possible. The same applies at the legislative level. Off-peak charing is important for maximizing the benefit of the new technology in terms of existing infrastructure. It would be folly to have TOU be so unattractive that we start experiencing capacity problems early into the wide adoption of EVs.


An easy inspection for single family homes can clearly show if the application is correct.
 
Juiced said:
Last year we had a Southern California Edison TOU (time of use) meter installed to service our MINI E. This worked great because we were maxed out on the existing house meter capacity. The TOU meter piggy backs on the existing meter and takes power from the grid BEFORE the existing main panel. You get an additional 40 amp service without a major panel upgrade. A 40 amp disconnect is required by code near the TOU meter along with a second one near the charging unit if it is more than a certain distance away. SCE off-peak charging hours are 9:00pm to 12:00 noon

So was this the TOU-EV rate schedule? It sounds pretty good to me, and would help me avoid any issues with my panel, which I'm still a little wary of until the AV guy says it's workable.

So did that put your house on TOU too, or can it stay on the Domestic rate schedule?
 
mwalsh said:
..would help me avoid any issues with my panel, which I'm still a little wary of until the AV guy says it's workable...

The only thing PG&E warned me about for the second meter was that I might need to upgrade my supply lines at considerable cost (they're underground). An electrician could look at your service entry and tell you if yours would be OK without an upgrade, a duplex service entry is a pretty common installation.

I'm going to try to ask my Nissan EVSE person to quote my installation two ways, straightforward add-a-circuit and and also add-a-meter.
 
Did we talk about this already....does the EVSE credit carry over or is it a one-time deal like the EV credit?

If I get my car this year AND my EVSE, I would be much better off putting as much of the EVSE installation (in terms of panel upgrades and such) on my PV system install, since the credit for it does carry over!
 
mwalsh said:
Did we talk about this already....does the EVSE credit carry over or is it a one-time deal like the EV credit?

If I get my car this year AND my EVSE, I would be much better off putting as much of the EVSE installation (in terms of panel upgrades and such) on my PV system install, since the credit for it does carry over!

EVSE credit has a 2K limit ... don't know whether it can carry over.
 
For Charge Stations
Tax credit equaling 50% of the cost to install an EV charge station, with a maximum $2,000 credit for each station installed.

So total cost could be up to $4,000 and still receive full 50% credit.
 
I hope this is on topic. I didn't want to start a new thread, but wanted to remind everyone about the AMT limitation. I realize that there has been some discussion of this along with discussion of the $7500 vehicle credit, which is handled differently.

It appears to me that the Federal 50% EVSE tax credit is eliminated completely if you owe even $1 of Alternative Minimum Tax.

From my amateur reading of IRS form 8911 on Nissan's site: http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/pdf/incentives/nissan-leaf-incentive-56.pdf line 22 reads that if you subtract the Tentative Minimum Tax from the Regular Tax and the result is zero or less, "stop here, do not file this form" unless you are filing as a business.

To me, that means "sorry, you don't get ANY of this credit if your tentative minimum tax equals or exceeds your regular tax".

I paid about $1,000 of AMT in 2009 and I'll probably pay some in 2010, so I'm assuming that I'm s**t out of luck for this credit. That's important for me to know as I evaluate the AV quote for the EVSE install that I expect in a few days. I ran into a similar limitation for the 2007 tax year, when I installed solar PV and bought a Prius. I didn't pay AMT in that year, but my $2,000 federal solar PV credit eliminated my ability to take the $750 hybrid car credit because of the affect of subtracting the $2,000 credit and how that affected the tentative minimum tax calculation.

AMT often affects certain taxpayers in high tax states like California, where you are pushed into the AMT by deducting the high state income taxes. So yes, we in CA are in the early roll out markets, but there are drawbacks.
 
Boomer23 said:
I hope this is on topic. I didn't want to start a new thread, but wanted to remind everyone about the AMT limitation. I realize that there has been some discussion of this along with discussion of the $7500 vehicle credit, which is handled differently.

It appears to me that the Federal 50% EVSE tax credit is eliminated completely if you owe even $1 of Alternative Minimum Tax.

From my amateur reading of IRS form 8911 on Nissan's site: http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/pdf/incentives/nissan-leaf-incentive-56.pdf line 22 reads that if you subtract the Tentative Minimum Tax from the Regular Tax and the result is zero or less, "stop here, do not file this form" unless you are filing as a business.

To me, that means "sorry, you don't get ANY of this credit if your tentative minimum tax equals or exceeds your regular tax".

I paid about $1,000 of AMT in 2009 and I'll probably pay some in 2010, so I'm assuming that I'm s**t out of luck for this credit. That's important for me to know as I evaluate the AV quote for the EVSE install that I expect in a few days. I ran into a similar limitation for the 2007 tax year, when I installed solar PV and bought a Prius. I didn't pay AMT in that year, but my $2,000 federal solar PV credit eliminated my ability to take the $750 hybrid car credit because of the affect of subtracting the $2,000 credit and how that affected the tentative minimum tax calculation.

AMT often affects certain taxpayers in high tax states like California, where you are pushed into the AMT by deducting the high state income taxes. So yes, we in CA are in the early roll out markets, but there are drawbacks.


Not to mention the almost 10% sales tax and high registration costs!
 
For those interested, this is what the Edison's installation of the second Time of Use (TOU) meter looks like. My main panel is only 100 amp and 40 years old. The small box in the lower left contains a double 40 amp circuit breaker which connects up with a Clipper Creek box on the other side of the wall in my garage:

DSCN4752.jpg


DSCN4759.jpg


This was for the Mini E I drove for the last year, now gone.
 
soareyes said:
My main panel is only 100 amp and 40 years old.
Your panel looks exactly like mine (minus the dual meter) - mines about 36 years old.

soareyes said:
This was for the Mini E I drove for the last year, now gone.
Too bad, but the Leaf will be much cheaper. :)
 
So was this the TOU-EV rate schedule? It sounds pretty good to me, and would help me avoid any issues with my panel, which I'm still a little wary of until the AV guy says it's workable.

So did that put your house on TOU too, or can it stay on the Domestic rate schedule?
[/quote]

Your existing home account and rates do not change. The TOU account and billing is separate from your home account.
 
soareyes said:
For those interested, this is what the Edison's installation of the second Time of Use (TOU) meter looks like. My main panel is only 100 amp and 40 years old. The small box in the lower left contains a double 40 amp circuit breaker which connects up with a Clipper Creek box on the other side of the wall in my garage:
...
This was for the Mini E I drove for the last year, now gone.
Cool. Thanks for posting that. So ... you could ask ClipperCreek to swap the orange cable to a J1772 version, and that should work for the LEAF, right ? And what is the box between the outside and the ClipperCreek EVSE ?
Did the end of the Mini program *not* require the return of the CC ?
 
LEAFer said:
Cool. Thanks for posting that. So ... you could ask ClipperCreek to swap the orange cable to a J1772 version, and that should work for the LEAF, right ? And what is the box between the outside and the ClipperCreek EVSE ?
Did the end of the Mini program *not* require the return of the CC ?

Yes, I could swap the cable to a J1772 version and it would work with the Leaf, but I was told it wouldn't be UL compliant as the box and cable are certified together as a unit. BMW had a big problem in some cities getting the EVSE installs passed by city inspectors because of this, with one driver on the east coast waiting over 6 months before passing. Some cities just had tougher inspectors than others.

At the end of the Mini E program, we were allowed to keep the boxes for free if we wanted to. I suspect they would be useless to BMW (and maybe to us) because of the cable issue.

Oh, and the small box just before the Clipper Creek box is a timer. Unlike the Leaf, the Mini E didn't have to capability to program charging times so the mechanical timing box let me charge during cheap night rates. I would just plug the car in when I got home from work but charging wouldn't start till after 9pm.
 
soareyes said:
Yes, I could swap the cable to a J1772 version and it would work with the Leaf, but I was told it wouldn't be UL compliant as the box and cable are certified together as a unit. BMW had a big problem in some cities getting the EVSE installs passed by city inspectors because of this, with one driver on the east coast waiting over 6 months before passing. Some cities just had tougher inspectors than others.
Hmm ... so ... like ... how often does YOUR inspector come back to YOUR house to make sure you still have that orange MiniE cable attached ?? :twisted:
 
soareyes and Juiced: What were the costs owed to SCE, if any, for the additional meter? Did you have an up-front cost for the meter, or a monthly fee for the second meter read, or any other charges?

Thanks. This is very helpful info.
 
Boomer23 said:
soareyes and Juiced: What were the costs owed to SCE, if any, for the additional meter? Did you have an up-front cost for the meter, or a monthly fee for the second meter read, or any other charges?

Thanks. This is very helpful info.

Boomer, there was no charge from SCE to install the TOU meter. However, the contractor that installed the Clipper Creek box did charge $500 for the time and materials necessary from their end related to the TOU install.

SCE did have an 18 cent/day rental charge for the extra meter (about $5.40/month) but they dropped this charge to zero about 9 months ago.

Here are the TOU EV rates for Edison in my area. Off peak is from 9 pm to 12 noon 7 days a week:

Winter Off-peak 10.3¢/kWh
Winter On-peak 20.9¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak 10.3¢/kWh
Summer On-peak 28.8¢/kWh

Other than that, there are no additional charges!
 
soareyes said:
Here are the TOU EV rates for Edison in my area. Off peak is from 9 pm to 12 noon 7 days a week:

Winter Off-peak 10.3¢/kWh
Winter On-peak 20.9¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak 10.3¢/kWh
Summer On-peak 28.8¢/kWh

Other than that, there are no additional charges!

This compares to TOU-D-T as follows:

Winter On-Peak Level 1 13.9¢/kWh
Winter On-Peak Level 2 25.9¢/kWh

Winter Off-Peak Level 1 12.3¢/kWh
Winter Off-Peak Level 2 22.3¢/kWh

Summer On-peak Level 1 26.8¢/kWh
Summer On-peak Level 2 60.0¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak Level 1 13.2¢/kWh
Summer Off-peak Level 2 24.7¢/kWh

And TOU-D-TEV:

Winter On-Peak Level 1 14.6¢/kWh
Winter On-Peak Level 2 27.6¢/kWh

Winter Off-Peak Level 1 12.3¢/kWh
Winter Off-Peak Level 2 22.3¢/kWh

Winter Super Off-Peak Level 1 10.1¢/kWh
Winter Super Off-Peak Level 2 16.0¢/kWh

Summer On-peak Level 1 27.6¢/kWh
Summer On-peak Level 2 63.4¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak Level 1 14.0¢/kWh
Summer Off-peak Level 2 26.1¢/kWh

Summer Super Off-peak Level 1 10.0¢/kWh
Summer Super Off-peak Level 2 15.7¢/kWh

*Level one equates to Residential Baseline Tiers 1 & 2. Level 2 equates to Tiers 3,4, & 5.
* Super Off-Peak on the TOU-D-TEV are midnight to 6am every day, yearly.

I've just ran some numbers and there isn't much in it for us with either the TOU-D-T or TOU-D-TEV once we've added the PV system. Maybe a slight overall advantage to the lower "Super Off-Peak" rates of the latter, but not by all that much.

P.S. Some of this Edison talk would be perfect for copying over to my SCE thread in the Utilities sub-forum!
 
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