SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

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yellowwaterdog

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It seems that the anti-CHAdeMO forces (SAE J1772 headed by Gery Kissel) have decided to formalize their recent announcements rejecting CHAdeMO in North America (March 12, 2012 Automotive News, "SAE poised to reject Japan's fast-charge choice"). I don't know about anyone else, but this seems like NIH -- is GM and other without an EV really afraid of the first movers? Maybe Nissan and Mitsubishi are really onto something?

Also, timing is suspect -- just before Nissan rolls out their low cost CHAdeMO charger....

Interestingly, the article describes GM's desire to have "one connector system" -- GM has used this as the primary reason not to use the CHAdeMO connector standard -- they want only one filler door. So, the need for a second DC charging standard is the filler door. I guess that means the problem with the Volt is that customers are confused about which is the electrical connecor and which is the gas filler?

What do you think?
 
I think we will see a LOT more roadblocks thrown in the way of the EV Revolution.

Apparently some powerful forces think that it not to their benefit if we stop buying the "Black Opium".

This is just another senseless roadblock.
 
I think this was predictable. Nissan is going to have to take the gloves off. If they think the US auto and oil interests are not going to fight them every step then they haven't thought this through.

I have always felt that GM was just another arm of the oil industry. Personally I don't really care what the SAE, GM or the oil cartels want. They don't even have a vehicle that can use their frankin-plug. This is a fairly thinly veiled attempt to muck up adoption.

Nissan can probably count on political pressure coming from our oil funded “representatives” as well.
 
So what? SAE does not make the laws. CHAdeMO can stand on it's own without SAE.
Do you think the OR CHAdeMO along I5 will be disabled?
What else would anyone install? Only CHAdeMO cars are getting built.

Heck we cannot even seem to get the paddle systems changed to J1772.
 
Luft said:
I think this was predictable. Nissan is going to have to take the gloves off. If they think the US auto and oil interests are not going to fight them every step then they haven't thought this through.

I have always felt that GM was just another arm of the oil industry. Personally I don't really care what the SAE, GM or the oil cartels want. They don't even have a vehicle that can use their frankin-plug. This is a fairly thinly veiled attempt to muck up adoption.

Nissan can probably count on political pressure coming from our oil funded “representatives” as well.

SOURCE Ford Motor Company
DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

* The system is a combined charging approach that integrates all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station
* The seven auto manufacturers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol. This approach will facilitate integration of the electric vehicle into future smart grid applications
* Agreeing upon a single, harmonized DC fast charging system, we believe will help infrastructure planning, reduce vehicle complexity and improve the ownership experience for electric vehicle customers
* Recognizing the importance of a single international approach for DC fast charging, Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have agreed on the combined charging system as an international standardized approach to charge electric vehicles (EV) in Europe and the United States.


The system is a combined charging approach integrating all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station. This allows electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen can share the same fast charging stations.

The seven auto manufacturers believe the development of a common charging approach is good for customers, the industry and charging infrastructure providers. Standardization will reduce build complexity for manufacturers, accelerate the installation of common systems internationally and most importantly, improve the ownership experience for EV drivers.

The endorsement of the combined charging system was based on reviews and analysis of existing charging strategies, the ergonomics of the connector and the preferences of customers in both the United States and Europe. The harmonized approach – across both continents and all manufacturers - will provide a framework for future infrastructure planning as well as a communication protocol to assist in the integration of electric vehicles into the smart grids.

The seven auto manufacturers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol. This approach will also facilitate integration of the electric vehicle into future smart grid applications.

Automakers point to the success of Level 1 and Level 2 (for 220V charging in the U.S.) as an example of how standardization will increase the adoption of electric vehicles and increase customer satisfaction. The harmonized electric vehicle charging solution is backward compatible with the J1772 connector standard in the U.S. Backward compatibility also has been achieved in Europe where the system is based on the IEC 62196 Type 2. The approval of the J1772 standard has given electric vehicle owners the comfort of knowing they can charge at all Level 2 charging stations. Prior to standardization an EV owner had no way of knowing if the charge port they were pulling up to was compatible with their vehicle.
 
scottf200 said:
Luft said:
I think this was predictable. Nissan is going to have to take the gloves off. If they think the US auto and oil interests are not going to fight them every step then they haven't thought this through.

I have always felt that GM was just another arm of the oil industry. Personally I don't really care what the SAE, GM or the oil cartels want. They don't even have a vehicle that can use their frankin-plug. This is a fairly thinly veiled attempt to muck up adoption.

Nissan can probably count on political pressure coming from our oil funded “representatives” as well.

SOURCE Ford Motor Company
DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

* The system is a combined charging approach that integrates all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station
* The seven auto manufacturers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol. This approach will facilitate integration of the electric vehicle into future smart grid applications
* Agreeing upon a single, harmonized DC fast charging system, we believe will help infrastructure planning, reduce vehicle complexity and improve the ownership experience for electric vehicle customers
* Recognizing the importance of a single international approach for DC fast charging, Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have agreed on the combined charging system as an international standardized approach to charge electric vehicles (EV) in Europe and the United States.


The system is a combined charging approach integrating all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station. This allows electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen can share the same fast charging stations.

The seven auto manufacturers believe the development of a common charging approach is good for customers, the industry and charging infrastructure providers. Standardization will reduce build complexity for manufacturers, accelerate the installation of common systems internationally and most importantly, improve the ownership experience for EV drivers.

The endorsement of the combined charging system was based on reviews and analysis of existing charging strategies, the ergonomics of the connector and the preferences of customers in both the United States and Europe. The harmonized approach – across both continents and all manufacturers - will provide a framework for future infrastructure planning as well as a communication protocol to assist in the integration of electric vehicles into the smart grids.

The seven auto manufacturers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol. This approach will also facilitate integration of the electric vehicle into future smart grid applications.

Automakers point to the success of Level 1 and Level 2 (for 220V charging in the U.S.) as an example of how standardization will increase the adoption of electric vehicles and increase customer satisfaction. The harmonized electric vehicle charging solution is backward compatible with the J1772 connector standard in the U.S. Backward compatibility also has been achieved in Europe where the system is based on the IEC 62196 Type 2. The approval of the J1772 standard has given electric vehicle owners the comfort of knowing they can charge at all Level 2 charging stations. Prior to standardization an EV owner had no way of knowing if the charge port they were pulling up to was compatible with their vehicle.

Well, let's hope that I'm wrong but until these guys start producing lots of EVs that use their standard and lots of affordable DC QC stations they're just blowing smoke. Talk is indeed cheap and I haven't forgotten the EV1 and the battery technology that GM acquired the rights to and then sold to Chevron.
 
We are seeing gas stations in Belgium that have 50kW ChaDeMo, 43 kW Mennekes as well as 32A/400V and 16A/230V connections.

http://www.recargo.com/search?search=Bruxelles,+Belgium" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be fair, however, the US does have Freedom Fries.
 
Luft said:
Well, let's hope that I'm wrong but until these guys start producing lots of EVs that use their standard and lots of affordable DC QC stations they're just blowing smoke. Talk is indeed cheap and I haven't forgotten the EV1 and the battery technology that GM acquired the rights to and then sold to Chevron.
There are only three majors with credible EV programs: Nissan, GM, and BMW. The latter two won't sell many EVs in Japan, where the CHAdeMO standard is deployed. Both the GM and BMW EVs will no doubt at some point, perhaps even shortly, support DC charging.

FYI the lack of CHAdeMO chargers can hardly be ascribed to the expense of the chargers. After all Ecotality is giving them away. The problem is more (1) lack of EVs on the road which means little demand; (2) safety and legal restrictions; and (3) regulatory issues relating to demand charges. By the time there are a sufficient number of EVs on the road the kerfuffle about CHAdeMO will be long forgotten.

RakesProgress said:
To be fair, however, the US does have Freedom Fries.
And more importantly for this discussion, gas prices under $4/gallon and electricity for home charging under $.10/kWh.
 
This is nothing but just another Corporate pledge. It just means that some people (GM/Oil) are afraid that certain partner manufacturers might jump ship and suddenly offer CHAD plugs in their upcoming EV's. GM and Exxon just want to make sure that their auto industry "partners" promise to only use the SAE standard that will never be produced. Get it? It's just a way of keeping the "SAE" partners in line and not offering QC EV's. This pretty much now guarantees that CHAD will be the QC standard by default... and alot of euro manufacturers will have to break their pledgs someday.
 
If they had products for sale (as in the beta vs. VHS standards war), I would say this might be a reasonable thing to do. The fact that they don't means I don't trust their motives for a second.
 
I don't know about you, but I'm writing a letter to let them know how I feel about this: [email protected]. I recommend that everyone with CHAdeMO experience does as well.

I personally think it's a good idea to have a high energy plug be separate. Being separate, used less, it will sill stay cleaner.

Having two plugs reduces that likelihood that a failure with one will leave you SOL! If one malfunctions, you will have the possibility of using the other.
 
If anyone has some decent bullet points to add to my letter, please post them. here is my letter to the SAE so far:
"Dear Sirs,
I have put about 13,000 miles on the electric Nissan Leaf in the last year. I am disappointed at the the SAE's apparent heel dragging on the creation of a new standard for DC Quick Charging. I'm guessing I am not the only one who has noticed that DC fast charging is key to mass adoption of EV's. Your delay in providing a new standard while at the same time denouncing the only option that is now being installed up and down the west coast is shameful and suspect.

From experience using both CHAdeMO and J1772 EVSE's, I have to say that both seem quite adequate. Introducing a new standard this late in the game is unnecessary and I believe, destructive to the adoption of electric vehicles. Had you gotten behind CHAdeMO originally, it would be available in all electric cars being planned for manufacture. Instead, some of the industry is stalled, waiting for a standard when there is already a very adequate one available.

I believe having two options for plugging in is good and should simply be adopted as is. J1772 plugs are often left on the ground, introducing dirt and moisture into the contacts in the plug. There are already hundreds of these chargers in our state, which I am thankful for, but I am glad that my CHAdeMO plug is separate and gets less wear and tear.

Your proposed combo plug, dubbed the "Frankinplug" in the EV community, is huge and unwieldy and lacks the security of a back up option, should their be a charging connector failure.

WA and OR have done the right thing and gotten behind CHAdeMO since the SAE failed to provide another viable alternative in time.

I Urge you to accept that you have waited too long, to accept that CHAdeMO is good enough and reverse your decision and quickly get behind the CHAdeMO standard so that everyone can move ahead with the creation of the critical and much needed DC fast charging network nationally."
 
1- Let's face it: ICE is fueled by 1 plug only (except diesel). So the gestalt of filling up is one fits all. And that's how it's been since we phazed out ledded gas.
2- Keep it simple is the way to go.
3- Just as we ended up with Blurays and killed HDDVD, VHS and killed beta, we will end up with one plug and kill all other. I don't know what kind, Maybe CHAdeMO only, that's for the market and the engineers to figure out years down the road.
4- Public J1772 being dirty is a very weak argument for a fast charger plug option.

These are the growing pains, folks. Personally, I have yet to plug in to a CHAdeMO or even J1772 outlet outside my house. They're just nowhere those things to be found or found available.
 
TRONZ said:
It's just a way of keeping the "SAE" partners in line and not offering QC EV's. This pretty much now guarantees that CHAD will be the QC standard by default... and alot of euro manufacturers will have to break their pledgs someday.

Big hat, no cattle.

Lots of press releases, but nothing to offer except press releases. I can't think of another SAE standard that get as much press time.
 
ILETRIC said:
1- Let's face it: ICE is fueled by 1 plug only (except diesel). So the gestalt of filling up is one fits all. And that's how it's been since we phazed out ledded gas.
2- Keep it simple is the way to go.
3- Just as we ended up with Blurays and killed HDDVD, VHS and killed beta, we will end up with one plug and kill all other. I don't know what kind, Maybe CHAdeMO only, that's for the market and the engineers to figure out years down the road.
4- Public J1772 being dirty is a very weak argument for a fast charger plug option.

These are the growing pains, folks. Personally, I have yet to plug in to a CHAdeMO or even J1772 outlet outside my house. They're just nowhere those things to be found or found available.

I've been using CHAdeMO since NOV. It's as simple as you can get, and Nissan has a DCQC less than 10K. Why make things more complicated with something that could be years away and cost much more money? "If it ain't broken, why fix it?"
 
Ford press release said:
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States
Translation: Seven European and US auto makers declare that the Japanese quick charging standard, currently with over 1,000 chargers and tens of thousands of vehicles worldwide, cannot be used. Three of the seven sell BEV's in small scale pilot test programs. One sells production quantities of an EREV which neither has nor needs quick charging. None sell BEV's in full production, and none have announced plans to sell any BEV that can use quick charging. And no company has announced plans to build an SAE quick charger - if the standard existed yet.

My prediction of SAE's next trick: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=122915#p122915

Forget SAE. Their only agenda is to slow EV adoption, and they're positioning themselves to become irrelevant to this century's automotive standards. Look instead to IEEE for formal standards for charging and other EV technologies.

http://electricvehicle.ieee.org/program.html
2012 IEEE International Electric Vehicle Conference said:
Plenary Session Begins
Dr. Gordon Day, IEEE President
Positioning IEEE as the Key Driving Force for Vehicle Electrification
and the Creation of the Associated Infrastructure
 
The SAE is a group of Total losers. Yes, I am comfortable throwing dirt in their faces and reverting to name calling. I think it is terrible how they consistently create unique US only standards that fly in the face of international standards and have created countless headaches for the average mechanically inclined handyman over the years. "what the heck this bolt must be metric, I only have SAE."

If they had a single plug solution in play, I would be all for it. However, all they have is an idea that is years out and a line of attack against the DC charging standard that is alive and well and in play today. They are just another group of right wing idiots on the side of slowing EV adoption. Just the opposite of what they claim. Perfection is the enemy of the good in this case and the SAE is the enemy of widespread EV adoption in the US.

I hope they prove us wrong but I doubt they will.
 
Sorry guys, but I'm with SAE. We need a single charge port. It's unfortunate that they aren't coming up with a replacement first before shooting CHAdeMO down though. Makes it look like they are purposefully trying to sabotage quick charging. It's like the home entertainment industry ruling out Betamax, but with no VHS to be seen.
 
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