SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:06 pm

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/10/17/le ... pany-cars/

Summary version: more companies are catching on to the problem of the fleet of PHEV owners not maximizing (or anything close) the battery component of the car. These cars were chosen for the subsidy
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:12 pm

I think that the European issue is that there are a lot of luxury PHEVs with short ranges and big motors (or in the case of the Mini PHEV, short range and a little motor). Porsche has several hybrids, including, IIRC, PHEVs. They are, of course, piggish on fuel anyway - at least when driven like a Porsche. Mercedes does much the same in their segment of the market. It's the worst of both worlds in those cases. When you look at PHEVs with a lot of EV range due to big batteries, and at those with small batteries but high fuel economy even with no EV charge left (like the Prime) the situation isn't nearly as bad. It comes down to human nature: give someone an easy way to feel better, even if it doesn't do much if any good, and they will take it over more effective choices that require some sort of sacrifice. I'm not a huge fan of PHEVs, but I do believe they have a place. We just need to adjust subsidies so that they are both built for high efficiency, and are marketed only where they will actually help.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
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Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:27 pm

Well said Leftie, excellent summation! I'm not a fan of PHEVs either. I agree RE PHEV subsidies, they should be based on the displacement of the engine - the bigger the ICE powerplant, the less the subsidy should be. Some of these luxury PHEVs shouldn't even qualify for subsidies.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
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SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:35 pm

An interesting corollary for the Europeans is that they would be better off spending their subsidy money on hybrids rather than PHEVs. Similar drop in fossil fuel use per car, but wider adoption of HEV than PHEV based on car cost

A 50:50 HEV/BEV market would be quite an improvement over what they have today.
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
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Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:47 pm

Hybrid-only vehicles could help EV adoption a lot if they had even a few miles (5?) of EV range. I remember how excited I was at the "EV" button on our 2010 Prius, and how disappointed I was at the less than 1 mile EV range.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:12 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:47 pm
Hybrid-only vehicles could help EV adoption a lot if they had even a few miles (5?) of EV range. I remember how excited I was at the "EV" button on our 2010 Prius, and how disappointed I was at the less than 1 mile EV range.
Hybrids tried that once upon a time. It was a short lived flop. The performance hybrid was also a flop but it might be time to revisit that again for the European market.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
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Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:24 pm

Hybrids tried that once upon a time. It was a short lived flop.
If "that" is a 5 mile EV range, I have no recollection of it. Link(s)?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:22 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:24 pm
Hybrids tried that once upon a time. It was a short lived flop.
If "that" is a 5 mile EV range, I have no recollection of it. Link(s)?
It does not work that way in hybrids. You can increase the battery size as I mentioned, but the marginal gain in fuel economy is minor and you do not get more 'EV mode' miles. You reduce corner cases where the hybrid has to operate the ICE in an inefficient power band. As for a 5 mile PHEV -- that is even worse than the Germans make and would suffer the same fate we are seeing now -- plug-in apathy.

Ignoring feature-itis, car choice comes down to utility, convenience, looks, safety, intangibles, dynamics and cost. Most EV owners think they win on convenience when they have at home or at work charging and Tesla owners are mostly not bothered by charging on trips but that is a ymmv and people who do not have experience with EVs are 'sure' that ICE win

For now ICE win on up-front cost, but that is changing rapidly and TCO favors EVs already

EVs win on utility, if the form factor exists.

EVs usually win on safety if the ICE is similar cost.

EVs win hand down on intangibles. ICE stink and fart, and they are dirty underneath. @Orient falls into a small minority group willing to consider ICE after owning EV.

EVs are a slam dunk on dynamics if the car costs are in the same neighborhood.

@Orient falls into a small minority group willing to consider ICE after owning EV.
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

CoLeafer
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:51 am
Delivery Date: 08 Aug 2020
Location: Colorado

Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:58 am

My experience is not directly correlative to this article, however, my decision to buy the Leaf was a result of my very positive experience with my Acura hybrid (not PHEV). Acura has positioned their hybrids as a performance upgrade. That coupled with my dislike of the overall ICE maintenance / gas station experience and incredible deals in Colorado, buying an EV was a natural / logical choice. But if not for my hybrid experience I would not have considered an EV (right now) regardless of the deals.
2019 SL Plus

LeftieBiker
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Re: Another Nail in the PHEV Coffin

Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:01 am

Pay attention please, Sagebrush. I'm suggesting that non-PHEV hybrids avoid the charging ports and onboard chargers, and get somewhat bigger batteries than regular hybrids so they can have 5 miles of EV range. You first claimed that this has been tried and abandoned (I think that you're mistaken about that, except for the popular in Japan Nissan "e-Power" hybrids), and now you claim that 'it doesn't work that way.' It's just a matter of programming the car to reserve the extra capacity for EV use unless a higher economy mode is selected. With no plugging in required, the driver gets either short trip EV use or higher fuel economy, or both. People who live in apartments would go for that.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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