Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

knightmb said:

gcrouse said:

I think 280 miles of range is probably the magic number for those on the fence to consider an EV more than a town car.

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The magic number is always shifting. Years ago, 100 miles was the magic number (which the early Leaf could do in theory if driving around town at speeds under 50 mph and no climate control) but then it jumped to 200 miles once it was seen that an EV could just be a "car" and not require anything weird to function. Once the lack of oil changes, filter changes, belts, blah blah, became apparent, then people wanted more and more EV transportation and thus wanted to do more with it, so the magic number of mileage continued to go up. Now that EV are all coming with either +200 miles of range or some options to get you +200 miles (Plus for Leaf for example), now people want it to do more, so the magic number is moving up again to +300 miles. Hence why the Ariya will be coming out in options for +300 miles of range. I'm sure, given enough time and advancement in battery technology, 300 miles will seem like nothing because everyone will be driving a +500 mile range EV as the base. Just like everything else that gets better over time, EVs have a long way road of improvements that can be had for years to come.

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I think the number shifting has a bit more to do with those who don't actually want an EV and have anxiety about the inevitable shift to something different. It was about a decade ago there was the EV Everywhere challenge and i think it was DoE that had a goal of a 5 passenger car having 280 miles of range and a 5 year payback time of cost premium up front versus the fuel and maintenance savings.

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV since that's about what my previous ICE car ranges were, although in terms of marketability versus viability I'd 100% agree. As the tech improves and battery prices drop (and have dropped) it makes it a lot less attractive to have a 100-150 range when there's similar models pushing 200-300. Honestly, i question the necessity for 500 miles of range for an average EV as charging infrastructure builds out. I'm sure even 600 miles of range is doable in the next 7 years but I'd rather see overall price drops with moderate range, but i also really can't stomach driving more than 350 miles in a day anymore.

gcrouse said:

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV

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Because of winter, not as a full ICE replacement for most people.

It also depends on where you live, and the DC infrastructure. I live in NM where Superchargers can be spread pretty thin and only in the next few months will there be a CCS/CHAdeMO build-out. My 315 EPA mile range was OK but I wanted more. 375 - 400 EPA miles would work very well for me, even with the infrastructure as it is today

gcrouse said:

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV since that's about what my previous ICE car ranges were,

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Really? What were you driving?

My real world range on my outback is about 450 miles, at 75 mph. I can drive from my place to Flagstaff w/o a stop for gas, if I really had to.
I usually stop in Kingman for lunch and gas anyway, but the real world range of my ICE vehicles has always been 400 to even 500 miles, AT FREEWAY speed. Even my f150 can get about 380 miles at Freeway speeds (I have the standard tank), and I guarantee the Ford Lightning Extended Range won't come close to that.

I think we are quite a ways from reaching that equality in EVs, and while I don't know what the Lucid range is at freeway speeds, but I doubt it even hits 400 miles. And that's a sedan. I'm talking AWD and 4x4 SUVs and trucks.

Don't misread my words, I'm not saying we have to *have* EVs right now that hit those marks, but those are real world ICE ranges.

500 is the number, and I think in 5 years, 500 for under 40K will be a reality. 500 gives you well over 200 very cold winter miles, which still makes long trips doable.


Anyone else notice that South Dakota has a bunch of new locations coming?

Over 6200 Leaf sales in Europe I'm December! Wow

https://insideevs.com/news/563926/europe-plugin-car-sales-december2021/

As old as this thread is, I'll still go ahead and chime in. I figure that it's only a matter of time before gas prices get really out of hand. I have a gas guzzler in the garage and the Leaf gives me an alternative if/when gas prices get out of hand. For about $10K more I probably could've gotten into a Tesla, but I wouldn't have qualified for the tax incentives. Then there was the vehicle I was trading in, a 2021 Nissan Titan, I didn't expect another manufacturer to give me the amount of money that Nissan gave me on trade-in.

I think I made a solid choice. The instant torque off the line really makes the Leaf quick to most posted speed limits in city driving, which is a nice surprise. Sure, Tesla vehicles are much quicker to 60 MPH, but to about 30-40 the Leaf will give a lot of ICE vehicles a run for their money (not for the purpose of racing, but for the purpose of getting into the lane you need to from a stop, or just being able to squirt around in traffic with ease).

About the only gripes I have for the Leaf is that given how much it cost ($10K off of a Tesla), the features aren't where they need to be. My Titan would read speed limit signs and report them on the IC which made it great for keeping things at speed. Given that the Leaf is an EV, it should have tech that makes it "cutting edge", especially at the cost. Nissan could've added more features for the price, or dropped the price a little more (this goes for the SL premium that I purchased).

As a 2nd car, the Leaf is a solid choice. The Bolt was something I considered, but given that the batteries are prone to catching fire, the Leaf was the least expensive option.

We've gotten a bit spoiled, so it bears remembering that for 90% of Americans, Pro Pilot and being able to pre-warm your interior from indoors on cold days are still the stuff of science fiction.

BeyondBeLeaf said:

About the only gripes I have for the Leaf is that given how much it cost ($10K off of a Tesla), the features aren't where they need to be.

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I agree on some missing features. My pet peeve is the lacking of memory recall on motorized seat & mirror positions.

Having said that, I'm confused about the remark on cost. I believe one of LEAF selling points is the cost and it certainly is not in the 10K delta with Tesla range. I just priced a model Y and it comes to about $60K with the lowest cost build choices. Similarly a LEAF with lowest cost build choices come to about $30K and you still have various financial incentives ranging up to $10K depending on your state. So cost is nowhere near a Tesla. Maybe I got the comment above wrong.

OldManCan said:

BeyondBeLeaf said:

About the only gripes I have for the Leaf is that given how much it cost ($10K off of a Tesla), the features aren't where they need to be.

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I agree on some missing features. My pet peeve is the lacking of memory recall on motorized seat & mirror positions.

Having said that, I'm confused about the remark on cost. I believe one of LEAF selling points is the cost and it certainly is not in the 10K delta with Tesla range. I just priced a model Y and it comes to about $60K with the lowest cost build choices. Similarly a LEAF with lowest cost build choices come to about $30K and you still have various financial incentives ranging up to $10K depending on your state. So cost is nowhere near a Tesla. Maybe I got the comment above wrong.

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Comparing a Leaf S to a Tesla Y is an apples to oranges argument. Even a standard range 3 would be a stretch. Having said that, with the federal incentive (if you can qualify for it) the Leaf+ models do deserve a look. There also the fact that you can't actually buy a Tesla 3 or a Y right now. You can order one and wait a year for delivery if you want.

I do agree about the memory recall feature. It's a small convenience but it shouldn't be absent on an SV+ or SL+. Maybe on a S or S+ where you re trying to cut costs.

johnlocke said:

Comparing a Leaf S to a Tesla Y is an apples to oranges argument. Even a standard range 3 would be a stretch.

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Agreed. I was merely reacting to earlier posters cost comparison between LEAF vs Tesla at $10K which I think is not a fair representation. While they are certainly not equal in any sense, a LEAF Plus (SL or SV) available almost immediately and at half the cost over a car which you have to wait for almost a year is certainly a good buy. At the end of the day for me it comes down to what I can afford and what I can get my hands on and LEAF ticked both boxes very nicely vs the other options.

I realize not for most, but having a 60 kWh battery backup for home power via the CHAdeMO is something that does not appear to be available anytime soon with a Tesla EV. That is another $16K + to get 13.5 kWh for a standalone system.

Having said that, the state of V2X technology via the Leaf is still somewhat confounding - but V2H is available and works - in an emergency :mrgreen:

Lefti has a good point about people becoming jaded to rather frivolous complaints about the comparitive "luxury" afforded by modern cars. Whilst not being quite that old, I can remember stories about hand cranking a Model A..."make sure you use the steering wheel column spark adjust to retard the spark, otherwise it might kick back on you and break your arm". Getting old has few advantages, but being able to be perspective is one of the few.

+1. I just read an article in the New Yorker about Ford's F150 Lightning. Some suit from Ford went on about how the car of the future is a 'platform' for software, much like an iPhone or Google phone. There were mentions about how the hardware (of the truck that is....) is being designed mainly to run the software on it. Makes me wonder who will be the first to come out with an 'automobile' that is optimized to burn fuel to process some crypto-nonsense :twisted:

There are a bunch of Tesla owners who have somehow made software to have their CPU mine crypto. Way over my head and I can't image there aren't less expensive computer to do that rather than tapping in to the CPU of a vehicle thats is trying to safely move you down the road...

BrockWI said:

There are a bunch of Tesla owners who have somehow made software to have their CPU mine crypto. Way over my head and I can't image there aren't less expensive computer to do that rather than tapping in to the CPU of a vehicle thats is trying to safely move you down the road...

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Coming from someone with a lot of software programming background, the mining can easily be put into the lowest priority mode of the CPU so in theory, it wouldn't really affect anything that needed CPU time to do safety stuff. The downside is, you are basically wasting power for something that will never equal out the expense of doing it. Unless the Tesla is always getting a free source of power, it's basically same comical line from a movie I once heard. "Son, my leadership helped the company make 1 billion dollars last year. It only cost 4 billion to do it" :lol:

danrjones said:

gcrouse said:

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV since that's about what my previous ICE car ranges were,

Click to expand...

Really? What were you driving?

My real world range on my outback is about 450 miles, at 75 mph. I can drive from my place to Flagstaff w/o a stop for gas, if I really had to.
I usually stop in Kingman for lunch and gas anyway, but the real world range of my ICE vehicles has always been 400 to even 500 miles, AT FREEWAY speed. Even my f150 can get about 380 miles at Freeway speeds (I have the standard tank), and I guarantee the Ford Lightning Extended Range won't come close to that.

I think we are quite a ways from reaching that equality in EVs, and while I don't know what the Lucid range is at freeway speeds, but I doubt it even hits 400 miles. And that's a sedan. I'm talking AWD and 4x4 SUVs and trucks.

Don't misread my words, I'm not saying we have to *have* EVs right now that hit those marks, but those are real world ICE ranges.

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Our 2008 Outback XT struggled to hit 300+ miles in town. And didn't do great on the highway either. Fun car to drive. Awful mileage.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I think it was a 2005.

OldManCan said:

BeyondBeLeaf said:

About the only gripes I have for the Leaf is that given how much it cost ($10K off of a Tesla), the features aren't where they need to be.

Click to expand...

I agree on some missing features. My pet peeve is the lacking of memory recall on motorized seat & mirror positions.

Having said that, I'm confused about the remark on cost. I believe one of LEAF selling points is the cost and it certainly is not in the 10K delta with Tesla range. I just priced a model Y and it comes to about $60K with the lowest cost build choices. Similarly a LEAF with lowest cost build choices come to about $30K and you still have various financial incentives ranging up to $10K depending on your state. So cost is nowhere near a Tesla. Maybe I got the comment above wrong.

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I must retract my statement, but not because you're right, but because we're both wrong. Also, I purchased the SL Premium, which MSRP'd just shy of $40K. A base model 3 goes for just over $40K (based on their websites, no markups that I've seen) https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview In all honesty, that price makes it even more difficult for me to justify the Leaf. Although, as I stated with my previous post, Nissan gave me better than market value for my Titan, so I figure it's almost negligible. About the only concern I have now is how the Leaf's resale value would measure up compared to the Tesla model 3's. I've heard Tesla has issues with panel gaps and other quality issues, but there's a lot of features for the similar money I paid for the Leaf. Oh well, I paid what I thought was fair and that's all I can say.

LeftieBiker said:

We've gotten a bit spoiled, so it bears remembering that for 90% of Americans, Pro Pilot and being able to pre-warm your interior from indoors on cold days are still the stuff of science fiction.

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My Nissan Titan and even my Kia Soul had these types of systems, if not a little better executed versions. I still miss looking down at my IC in my Titan and seeing the speed limit of the area. I will say this, I'm still learning the intricacies of the Leaf, and haven't yet played with the trip planning feature on the radio.

gcrouse said:

knightmb said:

gcrouse said:

I think 280 miles of range is probably the magic number for those on the fence to consider an EV more than a town car.

Click to expand...

The magic number is always shifting. Years ago, 100 miles was the magic number (which the early Leaf could do in theory if driving around town at speeds under 50 mph and no climate control) but then it jumped to 200 miles once it was seen that an EV could just be a "car" and not require anything weird to function. Once the lack of oil changes, filter changes, belts, blah blah, became apparent, then people wanted more and more EV transportation and thus wanted to do more with it, so the magic number of mileage continued to go up. Now that EV are all coming with either +200 miles of range or some options to get you +200 miles (Plus for Leaf for example), now people want it to do more, so the magic number is moving up again to +300 miles. Hence why the Ariya will be coming out in options for +300 miles of range. I'm sure, given enough time and advancement in battery technology, 300 miles will seem like nothing because everyone will be driving a +500 mile range EV as the base. Just like everything else that gets better over time, EVs have a long way road of improvements that can be had for years to come.

Click to expand...

I think the number shifting has a bit more to do with those who don't actually want an EV and have anxiety about the inevitable shift to something different. It was about a decade ago there was the EV Everywhere challenge and i think it was DoE that had a goal of a 5 passenger car having 280 miles of range and a 5 year payback time of cost premium up front versus the fuel and maintenance savings.

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV since that's about what my previous ICE car ranges were, although in terms of marketability versus viability I'd 100% agree. As the tech improves and battery prices drop (and have dropped) it makes it a lot less attractive to have a 100-150 range when there's similar models pushing 200-300. Honestly, i question the necessity for 500 miles of range for an average EV as charging infrastructure builds out. I'm sure even 600 miles of range is doable in the next 7 years but I'd rather see overall price drops with moderate range, but i also really can't stomach driving more than 350 miles in a day anymore.

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SageBrush said:

gcrouse said:

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV

Click to expand...

Because of winter, not as a full ICE replacement for most people.

It also depends on where you live, and the DC infrastructure. I live in NM where Superchargers can be spread pretty thin and only in the next few months will there be a CCS/CHAdeMO build-out. My 315 EPA mile range was OK but I wanted more. 375 - 400 EPA miles would work very well for me, even with the infrastructure as it is today

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I'm probably in the minority here, but I would be perfectly ok with 200 mile range. What irritates me is the charge times. Give me a 200 mile range with the infrastructure in place to charge my battery in less than 30 minutes. Right now, I don't like that it takes about 6-8 hours for a full charge at my current charging station.

BeyondBeLeaf said:

OldManCan said:

BeyondBeLeaf said:

About the only gripes I have for the Leaf is that given how much it cost ($10K off of a Tesla), the features aren't where they need to be.

Click to expand...

I agree on some missing features. My pet peeve is the lacking of memory recall on motorized seat & mirror positions.

Having said that, I'm confused about the remark on cost. I believe one of LEAF selling points is the cost and it certainly is not in the 10K delta with Tesla range. I just priced a model Y and it comes to about $60K with the lowest cost build choices. Similarly a LEAF with lowest cost build choices come to about $30K and you still have various financial incentives ranging up to $10K depending on your state. So cost is nowhere near a Tesla. Maybe I got the comment above wrong.

Click to expand...

I must retract my statement, but not because you're right, but because we're both wrong. Also, I purchased the SL Premium, which MSRP'd just shy of $40K. A base model 3 goes for just over $40K (based on their websites, no markups that I've seen) https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview In all honesty, that price makes it even more difficult for me to justify the Leaf. Although, as I stated with my previous post, Nissan gave me better than market value for my Titan, so I figure it's almost negligible. About the only concern I have now is how the Leaf's resale value would measure up compared to the Tesla model 3's. I've heard Tesla has issues with panel gaps and other quality issues, but there's a lot of features for the similar money I paid for the Leaf. Oh well, I paid what I thought was fair and that's all I can say.

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Clearly, if the Tesla and the Leaf both sold at the same or nearly the same price after all incentives, i.e. actual out-the-door, wheels-over-the-curb price, then either the Tesla would be way under-priced, or the Leaf flat uncompetitive. However, to my knowledge, that is nowhere or almost nowhere the case, at least in the US.

We paid $27k before taxes and tags in 2019 for our SL+. At that price, it's a bargain. And many thousands less than the model 3's that were actually available at the time. I priced it against the Mazda 3 hatchback and the Corolla hatchback at the time, and it was in between the two. The Tesla 3 is a $50k car*, give or take, marketing and special considerations notwithstanding. It is also worth that in my view, but comparing MSRP figures is really misleading in these circumstances. The Leaf is currently priced to capture the incentives.

I fully expect Nissan to lower the price of the Leaf should federal incentives end. They already have for this year. They'll simply have to, barring some change in the market.

*I'm not inclined to consider vaporware. If the SR version isn't available for months and months, it isn't actually on sale. Tesla plays games making claims they may or may not ever honor. Not a $40k car unless I can take delivery on one for that price in less than 2 months or so.