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Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:47 pm
by evchels
thankyouOB wrote:i like your theory and appreciate the thoughtfulness on your part, but i like allot of theories that turn out to be wrong.


chelsea?
andy?

nissan is debating what issues with regard to announcing a price on the battery?
I obviously can't appropriately answer this on Nissan's behalf. Andy did express concern to me that today's price would scare new folks, though I explained that it was important to some drivers to know for a complete TCO picture. I'm sure there's more to it internally than that, however.

I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:02 pm
by mwalsh
I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
I figured as much. Should have bet Evdriver that pizza after all. Wish he'd cut the snark and deliver only facts. :?

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:07 pm
by LEAFer
davewill wrote:They don't want to give us today's answer. LEAF batteries today are made overseas and are probably priced pretty scary due to yen-dollar exchange. Tennessee batteries will be cheaper, and they will likely get cheaper still in 3-8 years when people are actually likely to buy a new battery. So, if they are forced to announce a price, do they scare everyone with a high one? Do they announce a price consistent with the future and just hope they don't get burned by someone insisting on buying now or by the costs not dropping as they project?
The way the Tesla Roadster Replacement Battery Agreement works is quoting a fixed price ($12k) for pack replacement after 7 years from car purchase. Plus a fixed discount ($1k) for each year you wait beyond that, but not exceeding past the ninth year (so $9k is the 10th year price). After the 9th year it's use-it-or-lose-it. Before the 7th year is completed it's not usable (per the contract language). (But ... if you're out of warranty and your Roadster pack drops suddenly and you are in your 6th or start of 7th year ... maybe Tesla would "accomodate" you for a $1k upcharge for each year, but that's just a guess). However, I mention the latter, because for AZ LEAFs that show unusually fast degradation (oops, sorry, Normal Nissan AZ Year performance !) with a non-owner fault situation ( I think you know what I am getting at ... ), maybe Nissan would "accomodate" and pro-rate their 8th-year/100k-miles fixed replacement cost in such a way as to allow early replacement while providing a bit of a discount. Other "normal" regions (12,500 mile Nissan Year places) would get the standard contract without early replacement option.

(The Tesla Agreement does not specify any miles; calendar time only.)

The bottom line is ... with such a future contract price EVERY LEAF prospect can rest somewhat easier, knowing upfront what it MIGHT cost them at a particular point in time. I can't tell you how many times I am asked "how long will the battery last" and "how expensive is it". The answer I give regularly is the EXEMPLARY pioneering Tesla method, and finish up with ... "If Nissan gave me an 8th year as-new replacement battery for an additional 10% of LEAF MSRP upfront I would immediately opt-in." Because it helps me with the resale value of the LEAF if I opt not to keep it that long. ( The LEAF Replacement Battery Agreement would transfer with the car. And to me it's like an insurance policy to cover the long-term risk. I know it's non-refundable ( if the car is totaled for example ), but that part of the factors I can weigh when making the decision to purchase the LEAF RBA. :)

( The time-frame/miles parameters of the RBA could be user-choice for, of course, different cost. Just like extended warranty contracts can be chosen a-la-carte. )

Edit: Keep in mind the $12k Tesla RBA price is for a 56kWh (53kWh) pack of different construction & chemistry. Don't let that price influence the LEAF RBA cost.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:11 pm
by LEAFer
evchels wrote:I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
Was it made very clear that the requested price is for an EXCHANGE ***NOT*** a NEW part ? I.e. including a "core charge" whereby the old part is returned to Nissan, for perhaps, refurbishment and reuse ?

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:16 pm
by Stoaty
mwalsh wrote:
I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
I figured as much. Should have bet Evdriver that pizza after all. Wish he'd cut the snark and deliver only facts. :?
Yes, but Ingineer confirmed the $5,000 price. Perhaps the difference is between a new pack and a remanufactured one.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:22 pm
by evchels
LEAFer wrote:
evchels wrote:I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
Was it made very clear that the requested price is for an EXCHANGE ***NOT*** a NEW part ? I.e. including a "core charge" whereby the old part is returned to Nissan, for perhaps, refurbishment and reuse ?
Yes. What my own automotive experience hasn't taught me, my better half has! :)

Though in reality, I also told him we'd be happy to take all versions of battery price they were willing to give. Modules, whole packs, core charge or not, etc.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:24 pm
by palmermd
Stoaty wrote:
mwalsh wrote:
I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
I figured as much. Should have bet Evdriver that pizza after all. Wish he'd cut the snark and deliver only facts. :?
Yes, but Ingineer confirmed the $5,000 price. Perhaps the difference is between a new pack and a remanufactured one.
I think EVDriver and Ingineer had the same source, and it turned out that source was incorrect. He may have been a reliable source for information in the past, but it looks like they were both fooled by him this time.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:01 pm
by thankyouOB
evchels wrote:
thankyouOB wrote:i like your theory and appreciate the thoughtfulness on your part, but i like allot of theories that turn out to be wrong.


chelsea?
andy?

nissan is debating what issues with regard to announcing a price on the battery?
I obviously can't appropriately answer this on Nissan's behalf. Andy did express concern to me that today's price would scare new folks, though I explained that it was important to some drivers to know for a complete TCO picture. I'm sure there's more to it internally than that, however.

I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
Wow!
Thanks.
U r the real thing.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:05 pm
by lukati
mwalsh wrote:
I did bounce the $5000 figure off him though, and was told it's too low even compared to their internal costs.
I figured as much. Should have bet Evdriver that pizza after all. Wish he'd cut the snark and deliver only facts. :?
While $5k might be too low, there is a limit to how high it can go. According to Bob Lutz, the Volt battery is on the order of $350/kWh. See http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/201 ... olt-costs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:53 pm
by rumpole
TonyWilliams wrote:
Volusiano wrote:It seems like Nissan has already known all along that its 80%/70% glide path in 5/10 years is a big drop off up front. So why did Nissan withhold that information from the customer at the point of purchase and let them assume incorrectly that the glide path is linear? Nissan never said anything about the glide path being non-linear with a big drop off up front until the cat was out of the bag and the premature losses in Phoenix started piling up.
They knew...it's precisely why that first capacity bar segment at the top is 15%. That's more than DOUBLE the remaining bars segments.

They just used a non-linear display to match the non-linear degradation, and like normal... didn't tell the consumer.

Can you review again how you measured that the top bar segment is 15% of the capacity?